Trigger Work needed - Bisley 45colt

[45coltnut]

I need to either find someone to send my inner workings to or figure out how to DYI without breaking the bank on equipment.

My trigger is a nice 2 lbs., but it has the dreaded CREEP. I have allot of gunsmithing tools such are arkansas stones for honing. But, I do not have an angle jig. On top of this, I've never worked on the sear engagements of a single action revolver. I'm not afraid to, but I'm smart enough not too without the correct tools.

So, can anyone point towards a good person (maybe someone on the forums does it) to send it to for this? Or, a good place and a good jig for DYI? I can see myself doing this to at least two if not three single actions. So, the overall cost of the equipment is not out of the question.

Thanks.

[squawberryman]

I own, I like. Brother Bradshaw does his with an eyeball and an Arkansas. Me, I gotta trust a tool

powercustom.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=100

[45coltnut]

Thanks for the reply squawberryman and the link. Yeah, I don't think I can trust my eye and hand to get correct angles either

[bradshaw]

45coltnut.... sounds as though your main gripe is creep, or takeup. First mission in trigger job is to preserve RGAIN of factory letoff. Test by very gently squeezing trigger with pad or tip of finger. Trigger must sweep rearward at hammer fall. Must not KICK (kick forward). To kick indicates FUGITIVE ENGAGEMENT. Engagement angles of trigger tip (sear) and hammer notch (dog) must be correct to resistenttendency to fall off, or disengage.

To reduce creep, reduce shelf on hammer dog. Until you do this right, don't mess anywhere else. Lease of all on trigger tip. Removing metal from sear tip causes hammer to rest farther forward at full cock. This is readily apparent on a fugitive trigger job as excessive play between the cocking stroke and mechanical full cock. Very few stones are suitable for dressing a notch.

Hammer and trigger engagement may be observed outside the revolver by stuffing slot in cylinder frame with cardboard or thin piece of wood, and placing pins, trigger and hammer on right side of cylinder frame. Protect finish with paper or cloth "washer.' Dress dog a little bit at a time. Re-assemble, dry fire at least five times. Try again.

For test dry fire, secure grip frame to cylinder frame with forward GF screw and one rear screw. Insert cylinder pin to prevent transfer bar interference.

The above should get you closer to where you want your trigger.
David Bradshaw

[zeus]

Where do you live? If in the KC area, I can probably help you out. If not, give it a shot. Work slow and check often. Hard to add metal back sometimes parts are heap but you'll learn a lot along the way.

[45coltnut]

Bradshaw,
Do you mean that the trigger kick is due to uneven angels on both trigger sear and hammer? I don't think mine exhibits this issue but I'm going to go test it in just a few minutes.
I think I will try it myself. Heck, the worse I'll end up with is having to buy another hammer Do you simply use your Arkansas stone for this? I'm assuming so as mine is very fine and should remove it very slowly while polishing nicely. I guess a drop of oil helps also.

Thanks for the info.

[45coltnut]

Hey Zeus, I'm in extreme West KY or else I'd be knocking on your door. Thanks so much for the invite! I'll give it a shot myself tomorrow as I'll be working on rifle trigger also.

[tek4260]

Another thing to watch for is transfer bar lift. As you file the hammer and reduce the pull weight with springs, you are reducing the amount the trigger sweeps to the rear, thus reducing the amount the transfer bar rises. It can get to the point that the transfer bar "just hits" the base of the firing pin and causes battering of the pin.

[bradshaw]

45coltnut.... if I knew how to draw on a computer, I'd post illustrations. Doubt your trigger kicks forward on hammer fall, as sounds like you've only lightened trigger spring. The gentlest accumulation of pressure straight back with pad of finger should reveal true nature of LETOFF. Whether revolver in a Ruger or S&W, proper trigger and hammer engagement angles cause trigger to sweep rearward. Weak angles cause trigger rebound to outweigh trigger engagement. Trigger rebounds at moment of hammer fall. On New Model Ruger transfer bar drops below firing pin. On Smith & Wesson, trigger catches the double action fly (double action sear). Either way, gun does not fire. Honing through the case hardening on Smith & Wesson hammer/trigger will cause this.

Spyderco white ceramic sharpening stones with dead square edge can dress a hammer notch. I know of no natural stone with so sharp an edge.

Meanwhile, allow me to advise against monkeying with the hammer NOTCH itself. Stick with reducing the dog on the hammer. Beaucoup trial is the best way to avoid error. Unless you have great young eyes, get a good magnifier, such as the Optivisor.

Each revolver differs in minute tool marks.
David Bradshaw

[tek4260]

Reducing the width of the sear helps tremendously but I rarely ever see anyone recommend it. Is there a downside?

[Shakey]

45coltnut, some time back I found myself in your situation. Also, I had screwed-up a trigger job in the past from getting carried away using a stone to reduce the depth of sear engagement so, was very reluctant to grind any of my hammer away.

My solution was pretty amateurish and no real gunsmith would even consider it but I am an amateur after all and, most importantly, it appeared completely reversible if it didn't work out ...so, I tried it.

I simply stuck a tiny gob (technical term) of JB Weld on the hammer just below the sear notch and dressed this down until I was satisfied with the engagement. (Mr. Bradshaw's tips and warnings apply here.) I have done this on a Blackhawk .45 Colt and a Mark II .22. It's only been a couple of years and a few hundred rounds but, so-far, so-good. Nice crisp triggers and no problems.

What I like about this method is that, if I remove too much JB Weld, the engagement increases and no harm done. The trigger is basically back where I started, ...try again. Whereas, when I previously removed too much metal from the hammer, the engagement was reduced to the point of being unsafe and I had to replace it. (Yes, I know this could have been fixed but I had reached my skill limit.) This method also avoids the reduction of transfer bar lift mentioned by tek4260.

What I don't like is, of course, that this is a "cobbled up" job. I was also concerned that the JB Weld might dislodge but, ...not yet.

You will have to decide for yourself if you care to go this direction. We will probably get to read several reasons why it is a bad idea. Maybe it is, I really don't know. But, no permanent changes are made, no angles changed, no metal removed and, it is fully reversible. It's also cheap experience.

[bradshaw]

tek4260.... by reducing width of sear (trigger tip), take it you mean to lessen contact with hammer notch. I see no reason to challenge the robust contact of Ruger New Model hammer & trigger. To reduce contact concentrates load. I understand your desire to clean letoff. For me, that is where the work comes in.

Fast draw is not kind to the fingernail engagement required for a dead clean letoff. A bit of smooth take-up, or creep, suits fast draw much better. The old Colts and "old model" Rugers featured a bit of very smooth take-up, which in no way detracted from practical accuracy. Fortunately, Ruger parts are through-hardened. Leastewise, I'm unaware of any surface hardened parts during the Ruger ownership. A degree of very smooth take-up prevents dubbing associated with the dead clean break, and notably allows a reduction in pull. For fast draw can't have a light pull with dead clean engagement and expect it to last.

Some folk gorilla-cock a single action. To do so slams the cylinder locking parts, but does not in itself batter hammer/trigger engagement. Fast draw wants strong engagement.
David Bradshaw

[tek4260]

www.wedealinlead.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=725

Mr Bradshaw, here is the way I do them. Not technically right, but seems to work well for me. There is also a picture of a modified transfer bar that would work if you had misfires after stoning the dog on the hammer.

[bradshaw]

tek4260.... read your "wedealinlead" post. Pardon me for being so bold, but I do not like your bevel on the sear tip of the trigger. If it hods----and apparently it does----and you like, have at it. Critical to preserve what Bill Ruger, St. and Jr., described to me as "REGAIN," the inclination of hammer and trigger to hold engagement. In absence of regain there is kick, which occurs at hammer fall when the engagement angles are "soft." I has seen misfires in Rugers and S&Ws from fugitive trigger jobs. There were, decades ago, some short transfer bars installed in one or two models, which prevented sufficient overlap of the firing pin by the transfer bar to ignite the primer.

With your bevel, there is less reduction of the dog on the hammer. And, if the bevel is too much, you can restore the sear corner by stoning the flat below the sear corner.
David Bradshaw

[tek4260]

You most definitely can be so bold

I hold your opinion and experience in high regard and wanted your opinion. I have plenty of extra hammers and triggers to toy with so I can change any of them back to factory and try another route. I have a 32 Single Six that I need to do a trigger job on and will try the more traditional method of shortening the dog on it. Hopefully I can get to it this weekend. I already have the 26# hammer spring installed and the Bullseye trigger spring. Who knows, I may like it better. I came up with my method back before I "learned" the correct way of doing it on the net.