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Post by 45coltnut on Aug 20, 2013 9:26:39 GMT -5
Hello everyone. I have recently been bit by the Bisley 45 colt bug. I love this gun!! But, I"m having problems finding a good medium to hot load that has decent accuracy and burns effeciently. Currently, I've tried everything from 2400, Titegroup, Unique, H110 and Bluedot. All loads are with a Hard Cast 250 grain semi flat/semi round nose from SNS bullets. The Bluedot seems to be a very promising powder. Loaded at 14 grains I estimate the fps to be around 1200. The groups at 25 yds (with rest) are a respectable 2". At 50 yds, it seems to open up quite a bit. Its around 5-6". Of course this could be me. Right now, this is the load that I'll use for hunting. My issue with it though, is that not all of the powder is burnt. Will increasing the load to say 14.5 or 15 help this? I know in the 2400 it did. Now, onto hotter loads. The H110 at 25 grains definetly has a snap to it. I estimate the fps to be around 1400. The groups again at 25 yds are a good 2.5". But, at 50 yds, it actually opens up more than the bluedot. Its around 6-7". The good thing her is that the powder is all burnt nicely. With all of the above said, I do understand the MOA laws and that my groups are actually just slightly above the MOA at 50 yds. So, here's my questions for you 45 colt experts; 1. How do other peopel get there 45colts to shoot 2-3" groups at 100yds? Not that I'll ever be able to shoot an animal at 100 yds with my eyes 2. Is there a "best" velocity for the 250 grain in the 45 colt? 3. Do heavier bullets tend to group better in the 1:16" twist 45 colt? I see allot of people shooting the 300-325 grain hard cast. I know for me, this size bullet is way overkill as I'll only be taking hogs and deer typically (and hopefully). I appreciate eveyone's help and opinions. Craig
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COR
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,522
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Post by COR on Aug 20, 2013 10:10:55 GMT -5
Your bullet needs to fit your gun when using hard cast. You will have to experiment some to get where you want to be and you'll have to practice A LOT. If you are admittedly the weak link than how do you know these loads aren't good ones? Your questions... 1. PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE... I personally do not consider any shots over 75yds at game under field conditions and for many years that distance was closer to 40yds. You need to find you own limits. 2. There is no best velocity as their are many more variables to consider than speed...BHN, Fit to specific gun, etc. I always want accuracy first. 3. I personally don't shoot much over 300grs more often the 270SAA is my go to bullet and the factory twist is fine for them and anything else I have tried. Don't get too caught up in all the details and shooting the warmer loads....ENJOY THE GUN...the truth is that a 250gr RNFP at about 825fps will effectively take a deer. You need to find an accurate load and shoot it A LOT. Accuracy whould be first and foremost, not velocity or "hot" loads, even if the gun can take it. ...and one last thing I forgot...Why do you care about unburnt powder and efficiency? If it is accurate I couldn't care less how "efficient" it is burning...but maybe that's just me
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Post by 45coltnut on Aug 20, 2013 11:20:07 GMT -5
Hi COR and thanks for the comments. When you mention that the "bullets need to fit your gun when using hard cast", are meaning the sized diameter? Currently all I've tried has been the standard .452". I did have the cylinder throats opened up though, as they were tight. They are now .4525". Would you recommend trying a larger sized cast bullet? LOL, yes I probably am the weakest link when combining all factors of ammo, gun and shooter. I do pride myself in being a good shot with good trigger control. But then again, I guess I am a little arragant too. I agree with you on the range limitations. I've set my limits to 50 yds with the 45 colt. I have a 44 mag SBH with a 10.5" barrel and I can consistently shoot 4" groups at 75 yds. So, I may stretch it out if absolutley necessary. But, I'll have to feel very confident in the situation. My ethical kill ranges come from being a bowhunter of 28 years. I like getting animals in close. But, with a good handgun I feel a person should be able to extend the "bow" limit somewhat. The primary reason for my "best velocity" and "heavier bullets" is simply due to my past reloading experiences with rifles. A standard twist rate in a caliber is typically established for a standard bullet weight. But, you can typically deviate + or - quite a bit and still achieve good accuracy. Some guns are more picky that other though. So, I was just curious in the case of the 45 colt if this was typically true. And I hear you on getting caught up in the details! I'm a detailed kinda person. That's just what makes me tick I guess. But, I am enjoying the gun! Oh boy do I enjoy it. I would guess I've shot close to 500 rounds in the past month. Allot of load research of course, but still trigger time :)I simply love the gun. I already know its a shooter. But, I'll always look for those better loads to improve upon. The biggest reason I'm looking for a mid to hot load is for simple ballistics. I want to be able to effectively hunt to the 50 yd range with minimal drop. Therefore, if I can find a load that has good accuracy and fps, its a win win. I'm very comfortable at the 1200 fps from the blue dot. I don't have to have a HOT RUGER ONLY load. I have no doubt that I can effectively take an animal at 50 yds with any gun at 1200 fps. Heck, we all should be able to do that at 800 fps. Oh, the unburnt powder is just a personal pet peve I guess. It's just dirtly and ends up costing more to reload if its not burning it.
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Post by TERRY MURBACH on Aug 20, 2013 11:57:18 GMT -5
YOU need to seriously go read what John Linebaugh has to say about the 45COLT. You are looking at this with rose tinted glasses. AND the FIRST thing to remove from the thought processes is the term " HOT RUGER ONLY LOAD." As a for-instance; in 1973 I saw ten thousand pounds of meat [ five tons ] killed with a 4 5/8" 45COLT sixgun using the 260GR 454424 Keith bullet at 1075fps. NOT A SINGLE BULLET WAS RECOVERED, ALL WENT STRAIGHT THROUGH, AND FROM EVERY ANGLE YOU CAN IMAGINE. YEP....ONE THOUSAND AND SEVENTY FIVE FEEP PER SECOND !!! None of your perceived loads will come close to exceeding those results. What they will do is shoot ever so slightly flatter, and beat the thunder out of your gun hand. And so it goes...
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Post by 45coltnut on Aug 20, 2013 12:27:42 GMT -5
Terry, Thanks for your comments although they don't directly address my questions. I appreciate them nonetheless. I have read John Linebaugh's notes on the caliber. Several times actually. Great informaiton on the caliber. Thanks for reminding me as I may read it again.
Uhmm...rose colored glasses...not sure. Just looking for insight on my questions listed above from other 45 colt lovers.
My termology of "HOT RUGER ONLY LOADS" are specific to the reloads themselves as they are stated in loading specs. I think "HOT RUGER ONLY LOADS" are very appropriate as there is no way I'd shoot the 25 grains of H110 load in my S&W 25-5. I'm not saying anyone needs loads that hot. But heck, who needs allot of the things we have? Its personal preference.
It sounds like you've seen lots of animals taken with the beloved 45 colt. That's awesome! Like I have already stated in the above postings, I know standard loads in 45 colt can take an animal with no problem. For me, I'm looking for a little faster load. Does it make it right, no not at all. It's just what I want.
Therefore, I'm just looking for any advice on the best bullet weights / fps / accuracy. If it ends up being a 900 fps, 300 grain solid copper bullet...then so be it. If you can offer that advice, then I'm much appreciative.
Craig
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Paden
.375 Atomic
Lower Goldstream Creek
Posts: 1,132
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Post by Paden on Aug 20, 2013 12:56:31 GMT -5
1. How do other peopel get there 45colts to shoot 2-3" groups at 100yds? Try an Accurate 454350B over 16 to 17 grains VV-N110, or a 270 SAA over 9 to 10 grains VV-N350. Both are very accurate, very clean loads.
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shorty500
.327 Meteor
too many dirty harry movies created me!
Posts: 912
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Post by shorty500 on Aug 20, 2013 18:27:44 GMT -5
my "standard" heavy .45 load is an old NEI version of the RCBS 270SAA that wieghs in at 283g using w/w metal. seats short enough at 1.625 COAL that is usable in any .45 i know of.my load only hits around 1100fps depending on barrel length and is safe in my mind for any modern revolver thats capable of digesting 23kPSI loads
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Post by 45coltnut on Aug 20, 2013 19:31:14 GMT -5
Thanks Paden and Shorty500. I'd love to try some of the Vihtavuori powders. But, I just can't find any in the middle TN or Western KY area. Heck, its hard enough to find powder at all. I am blessed that my LGS has a ton of H110 I read an article earlier about using pin gauges to check the barrel for restriction areas. I think I'll spend about $30 and do this. If I find any, I'll probably fire lap the barrel and see what happens. Overall, right now I'm happy with the Blue Dot loads at 1150 - 1200. I guess I just like to tinker and try to make things better.
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fltbed
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 64
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Post by fltbed on Aug 20, 2013 21:44:17 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum.
I got bit by the 45 Colt bug back in the 80’s and let me tell you, there is no know cure! Over the years, I’ve handloaded for several 45 Colt revolvers and a couple rifles.
As for your questions:
1. I have no idea how some have gotten their revolvers to shoot such small groups at 100 yards. I’ve had scoped revolvers in 357 and 44 mag, that I’ve been able to get 5”-6” groups with…when I was younger.
2. I’m not sure there is a “best” velocity for 250 gr. lead bullets. I’ve only ever loaded commercial 250 gr. lead bullets to around 800-1000 f.p.s. Now, I’ve loaded the 250 gr. Hornady XTP’s and the old Speer 260 gr. JHP’s with 296/H110, Lil’Gun, H4227 and #9 and gotten good 50 yard accuracy (4”-5” groups) with velocities anywhere from 1100-1400 f.p.s.
3. In my experience, each gun is an entity unto itself and with proper load development, almost any weight bullet can be accurate providing it‘s of good quality construction and sized properly to your revolver. For pure accuracy, I like the 200 gr. H&G 68 originally designed for the 45 acp and bullseye shooting. However, for hunting weight bullets, I prefer the 270-300 gr. cast Keith and LBT lead bullet designs. They seem to have the best balance of long range accuracy, penetration and killing power.
Jeff
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Post by 45coltnut on Aug 20, 2013 21:50:30 GMT -5
Jeff, Thanks for the welcome and the info. I'm going to order up some 300 grainers soon just to try them out. I know its overkill as the 250 grainers should do all I need to. But hey, it will be fun throwing those big ole chunks of lead down range I love the way my 44mag super blackhawk shoots the 310 gr hard cast. But, in all fairness to my 45colt, the 44 does have a 10.5" barrel. Ole Hog Leg...as I like to call it.
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Post by sixshot on Aug 21, 2013 12:07:35 GMT -5
Welcome to the 45 Colt fan club! Your choice of the 250-260 gr. bullets is a good one & every 45 will shoot them great as long as the fit is correct (as mentioned) & you are doing your part. One thing you might look at is crimp, you want a firm crimp to get a good powder burn, but don't over do it. Although I don't use Blue Dot you shouldn't have any trouble getting a good clean burn with 14 grs of any powder. Don't concern yourself with velocity, its probably the biggest mistake most make when working up loads, accuracy is always number one, or it should be. With big heavy, flat nose bullets you will cut through deer like butter with any reasonable speed. After your gun has downloaded a few thousand rounds & your shots on target are where you want them to be, then you can ease up the scale a bit if you feel you need more power. Many will tell you that the gun shoots flatter with a hotter load & it does, but recoil also goes up & accuracy goes down, or it can. The old pie plate rule is a good one, if you can keep a cylinder full on the plate at your chosen distance you're good to go, if you're missing most of the time then power isn't what you need, its accuracy. I've taken many deer & a handful of elk with 45's, they are wonderful but nothing makes up for accuracy in the game fields.
Dick
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Post by bradshaw on Aug 25, 2013 15:50:15 GMT -5
Craig, aka 45coltnut.... after digesting council from the above forum members, note that in the 1970s and 80s, Bill Ruger held down production of Blackhawks chambered for .45 Colt----precisely over concerns of hot rodding. You mention a couple a things that raise the red flag, which are:
* "1200 to 1400 fps"----There is a huge difference in the pressure required to increase bullet's velocity in the .45 Colt from 1200 fps to 1400 fps. The above shooters recommending ACCURACY & CONTROL over velocity are on the right trail.
* "BLUEDOT"----Careful with this powder, as it spikes before your velocity dreams come true. Your revolver will not like spiked pressure.
* Don't confuse medium burn rate powders with top velocity, particularly with heavy bullets.
* "Dirty burning" powders may produce fine accuracy and low extreme spreads.
Better to WORK UP a load, than to work down. David Bradshaw
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450ak
.30 Stingray
Posts: 458
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Post by 450ak on Aug 25, 2013 17:27:12 GMT -5
There is a group buy on Cast Boolets for the 308 grain Keith bullet mold. Been the most accurate for us, especially beyond fifty yards. Our load has been 21.2 of WC 820 (lot 47320) and a remington 2 1/2 primer. It should hit 1200 in a 5 inch barrel. The pressure is in the low 30,ooo, dont remember exactly right now. Can look it up for you. Like Bradshaw says, 1400 is way above what a Ruger cylinder will take. And sixteen and a half of 2400 with a CCI 300 will do a thousand and so will nineteen of 4759.
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Post by 45coltnut on Aug 25, 2013 21:21:37 GMT -5
bradshaw & 450ak,
Thanks for the info. Yeah, I think I may have overstated the fps that I think my two hotter loads are getting. I haven't been able to chrono them and I was just going off of the load data fps. I'm more than happy with a 1100-1200 load with my 250 grain flat points as long as they are accurate. Upon further load investigation, I feel my H110 loads are probalby more like 1200-1250 fps max.
I did find out that I have a barrel restriction at the frame threads. I plan on doing some fire lapping in hopes to reduce the leading and improve accuracy. Currenlty, I can get good 25 yd groups, but after a few cylinders of rounds it goes away fast! I think this has been my biggest issue as I didn't really understand the leading issue I have. Besides loading lead fro 38 spcl, this is my first endevour shooting allot of lead and the effects it can have.
Right now I feel the two different loads that I have will work fine. They would shoot good on a clean barrel. And I realized that when going from 25 yds to 50 yds I had already shot my limit and the barrel was already leading. So, the 50 yd groups just opened up quickly.
I appreciate eveyone's help here. Great sight.
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Post by bradshaw on Aug 26, 2013 20:49:05 GMT -5
Besides conservation of your shooting iron and your health, the COMMON SENSE implicit in WORKING UP a load has an educational side affect: by carefully working up, one observes the moment an increased powder charge enters the red zone. Over time, working up loads becomes experience. That is to say, only through a cultivated process of load development do we begin to learn about propellant behavior. There was a lot of hairy handloading in the early days of silhouette. Several shooters championed the FIRE & BRIMSTONE approach, but they did not become champions. A shooter must finish before he or she can enter the winner's circle, and erratic power and erratic performance are not a path.
As for developing accuracy from an over-torqued barrel, fire lapping represents the least expensive way hone a compression ring or thread choke. Freebore requires a reamer, and barrel vise and lathe, and removing the barrel. To replace the barre; costs more yet. While fire lapping may be tedious, it allows for fine low velocity practice, and extra-low velocity teaches follow-through. David Bradshaw
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