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Post by hammerdown77 on Feb 19, 2012 11:23:32 GMT -5
Well, I finally made it out to the range yesterday to shoot my new to me FA 83 "Alaska Master Guide Series" for the first time. After having to order new rear sight screws to be able to adjust the sights (whoever traded the gun in put the wrong screws in for one reason or another), days of constant rain, and a week with a bad cold, I thought I'd never get to shoot it. Here's the thread about the gun singleactions.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=sas&action=display&thread=6997However, all was not well and I was almost dead in the water before ever firing a shot. I had several batches of test rounds loaded up, using Accurate #9 powder and some Trailboss. All rounds used a 300 grain truncated cone bullet with two crimp grooves from Missouri Bullet Co. shown below I seated the bullet to the second (lower) crimp groove, shown here These rounds easily drop into the cylinder on my Ruger SRH; however, in the FA cylinder they stop WELL short I did manage to find about 30 out of my batch that would chamber, some with a little push to seat fully, but most would not. I had some factory Winchester rounds with a 260 grain jacketed soft point, and those dropped in nice and easy. Ok, so first thing was to try some unloaded bullets and see if I could push them through the throats. Most of the ones I tried won't push through. They don't even go more than a 1/16" in (from the front face of the cylinder) before stopping cold. I can drive them through with a nylon rod. I got a .45 ACP bullet I have, same diameter but 200 grain, and it pushed through with finger pressure. So I got out the micrometer and mic'd the bullets. The .45 ACP bullet measure .4518", .4519" or so, depending on how I hold my mouth. Never more than .452" though. The 300 grainers that won't go into the chamber measure a few ten thousandths (.0001") OVER .452". Like .4522", .4523". Some internet searching confirmed that FA chambers are held to very exact tolerances, no greater than .452. I found several posts where guys did say that if their cast bullets were a hair over .452, they wouldn't chamber in their FAs. I figure I have a couple of options. One, go through my current batch of 300 grainers and hand pick the bullets that will press through the throats with finger pressure (if there are any). Two, find someone who has a .451 or .452 sizing die for cast bullets and run all of these through. These bullets are 18 BHN, so maybe running them through the .451 die they will "spring back" to .4515" or .452" So what do you gents recommend? Have any of you had this experience?
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Post by AxeHandle on Feb 19, 2012 11:37:50 GMT -5
Those FAs do require a different level of knowledge don't they. I'll look at my size dies to see what I have. You working Monday?
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Post by hammerdown77 on Feb 19, 2012 12:03:58 GMT -5
Yep, gotta work Monday. One of my shooting buds out near me says he has a .451 and .452 die. Might try to go over there after lunch with some bullets and sized, unprimed cases and see what we can come up with.
He also said he had some 300 grain Beartooth WFN GC bullets we could try.
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Post by pageophile on Feb 19, 2012 12:07:55 GMT -5
Yeapers, holds true with what I've seen/heard about the FA 454 offerings. The chambers are tight and darn near perfect. Heard about one fellow that needed to purchase new dies also to reload for the FA. His were not worn out but out of spec for the FA chamber. IMHO it's really cool that a company can produce such tight specs in this day and age
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Post by paul105 on Feb 19, 2012 12:13:37 GMT -5
I wrote the following a while back -- if you want more than my post, here is the link to the whole thread. There's some info in my post that most likely doesn't apply to you, but I didn't take time to editit. www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,133300.msg1098503683.html#msg1098503683 I have a .454 that I bought about 20 years ago. I struggled with it off and on over the years due to what I thought was tight throats. FA Factory 300gr ammo had to be forced the last bit into the chambers with heavy finger pressure. A year ago (yeah, I have a high tolerance for pain -- actually just lazy) I needed some work done to my M97 and mentioned the tight throats on the .454 to John at FA. He had me send the .454 cyl in along with the 97. When it came back the tight throat problem was fixed. The original throats were extremely abrupt (no chamfer/taper at the rear of the throat). From what I remember, FA chamfered/tapered the lead into the throats, but didn't open them up. The throats will let a .452 bullet pass but not a .453, so call them .4525. We slugged the bore, and it is right at .453. So, my first suggestion is to see if a .452 jacketed bullet will pass thru the cyl throats from the rear of the cylinder. If not, see if they will pass thru from the face of the cylinder – if they do, you may have the same problem that I had. If not, you’ll probably have to use cast bullets sized .451 just so they will chamber. From my recent experiences with the FA 475 LB (and the fixed .454), any of the Keith SWCs with the wide front drive band above cyl throat diameter are virtually impossible to seat in tight throated cyls. The LBT WFN with the longer (relative to a shorter nose in same caliber) nose to crimp measurement can also be difficult to seat. The WFNs from Cast Performance, as well as some of Leadhead’s bullets seem to be dual diameter – the base will be larger than the portion of the bullet in front of the crimp grove – so no seating problems. LFNs, and RFNs seem to be less prone to sizing/chambering problems. Unfortunately, about the only way you are going to figure it out is to actually try different nose profiles, manufacturers and diameters. Cast Performance makes very good bullets, but they are really pricy. Leadheads are also decent bullets, but are quite hard, and their shipping methods incr price. Try Montana Bullet Works www.montanabulletworks.com/wst_page6.html -- With shipping, they aren’t much cheaper than leadheads, but they will size to your needs, and most of their non gas checked bullets are of a “softer” alloy, and they will lube with LBT Blue. One last thought (probably have more but they have escaped me for the moment). When I got the .454 cyl back from FA, I tried some MT Bul Wks RCBS 270gr SAA, SIZED .454, in full length .454 cases, crimped over the front drive band, so I could chamber the rounds. These bullets weigh between 280 and 290gr with the Mt B Wks alloy. I loaded them with 7.8gr of HP38. This load shot into one ragged hole at 25 yards. These should be close to 950 fps in the 6” FA. The way they are alloyed, you should be able to run them in the 1,100 to 1,300 fps range with no probs. If you have a problem with crimping over the front drive band, you can always trim the cases enough to use the crimp grove. I haven’t tried the RCBS (82083) 300gr SWC GC in the .454. I have a bunch on hand, and have shot them in my Model 97 .45 Colt. I mention this bullet, because, even though it is a SWC, the front drive band isn’t as wide as the 270gr SAA mentioned above. Sometimes this narrower front drive band gives you more latitude in crimping the bullet so the round will chamber. Check your throats with a .452 jacketed bullet as mentioned above, and slug your bore. Cast bullets sized .451 may be on the small size for your gun. Don’t be like me, I now have over 300 Penn Bullet 340gr CTCs sized .451 and cast very hard, (read hard, undersized bullets) that give me leading problems in the .454 – I need to shoot them up, but just haven’t gotten around to it. I ordered 500 of those when I thought my throats were .451. FWIW, Paul
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Post by hammerdown77 on Feb 19, 2012 12:37:55 GMT -5
Excellent info Paul, thanks! The throats do look very abrupt, almost like there s a shoulder there for a cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth. I think my friend also has some XTPs that measure .452", so I'll try those out.
I think my gun was made around the same timeframe as yours.
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Post by nolongcolt on Feb 19, 2012 12:42:20 GMT -5
I too had issues with the truncated style bullet both cast and jacketed and switched to a more round nose profile. Did you try seating to the higher cannelure?
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Post by hammerdown77 on Feb 19, 2012 12:45:01 GMT -5
Have not tried seating to the higher crimp groove. I did that on some 45 Colt loads a while back, but couldn't get enough H110 in the case to get the velocities I wanted (probably not an issue with the Casull, though.
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COR
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,522
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Post by COR on Feb 19, 2012 13:25:59 GMT -5
I always check my rounds for fit in the gun they will be fired in before wasting any trips to field or range...I learned the same way that you have by loading some WFN bullets in 45 Colt...I only use LFN now but it was a lot of bullet pulling that could have been avoided by closer attention to detail. All guns are different and a few spot checks would have avoided my hassle.
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Post by hammerdown77 on Feb 19, 2012 14:09:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I felt like a bonehead for not checking before I went out there. I didn't even think about it because they had worked previously in the SRH. Luckily, I had several other guns to shoot as well, so it was still a productive trip.
Thankfully it's not a lot of loaded rounds that don't fit. Maybe 50. And I can shoot these in the SRH.
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Post by leftysrh on Feb 19, 2012 14:13:31 GMT -5
I didn't even get to shoot the newly aquired .454!
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Post by AxeHandle on Feb 19, 2012 20:09:36 GMT -5
FWIW this is not a phenomonon unique to the FA.. I've got a Bowen Nimrod 500L that choked on 500L bullets that were working in every other 500L I own.
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Post by hammerdown77 on Feb 19, 2012 20:43:25 GMT -5
Problem solved! Leftysrh helped me out. He's got a .451 sizing die, and we ran just the shoulder of the bullet through it (about down to the lower crimp groove). Mic'd the bullets at .452" or slightly under after that, so tried loading them up in some unprimed cases. Loaded them to the lower crimp groove just like in the picture above. Added just enough crimp to remove the bell, and dropped 'em in the cylinder. They went right in.
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Post by zac0419 on Feb 19, 2012 20:52:35 GMT -5
Don't be like me, I now have over 300 Penn Bullet 340gr CTCs sized .451 and cast very hard, (read hard, undersized bullets) that give me leading problems in the .454 – I need to shoot them up, but just haven’t gotten around to it. I ordered 500 of those when I thought my throats were .451 Don't shoot them if they're undersized. Melt them down and cast exactly what you want!! Can't do that with jacketed bullets.
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Post by hammerdown77 on Feb 19, 2012 20:54:38 GMT -5
So, my first suggestion is to see if a .452 jacketed bullet will pass thru the cyl throats from the rear of the cylinder. If not, see if they will pass thru from the face of the cylinder – if they do, you may have the same problem that I had. If not, you’ll probably have to use cast bullets sized .451 just so they will chamber. We tried some Hornady XTPs from the front of the cylinder, and they did pass through with finger pressure. At that point we decided to go ahead and try sizing the front part of the problem bullets with the .451" die.
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