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Post by northerngos on Mar 1, 2024 13:23:42 GMT -5
With the advent of Ronnie’s conversion of a single six to a center fire 5 shot, I’m curious what folks think about the merits of chambering in .38 vs .357. I’d like a small game gun, would love flexibility of various bullet lengths. I’m not concerned about recoil, just maximizing versatility and potential. I don’t want to leave anything on the table. Assuming max cylinder length to be a constant, and also max operating pressure to be a constant. I had initially thought to go with .38, which would allow loading bullets with a longer ogive. I imagine a .357 chamber wouldn’t have as much room in the lengthened single six cylinder window as a larger framed gun so there wouldn’t be room for loading long bullets seated far out (in .357) Then I started thinking that I could go with a .357 and deep seat a longer bullet in a mag case, and also deep seat shorter bullets if I wanted to load down for plinking. One advantage to this would be pairing the single 5 with a carbine. I’m curious what members here think about the two options. Also, David Bradshaw, would love to hear your thoughts on the ideal hunting caliber for the single five given the above constraints, and Lee Martin, also would love to hear your thoughts, I know you are more into target shooting but curious what direction you are going with yours. I can’t state enough how cool it is that this platform is an option for us through Ronnie Wells and his ever expanding exploration into the custom single action world. Can’t wait to see what he comes up with next!!
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Post by Encore64 on Mar 1, 2024 13:56:39 GMT -5
The 38 Specials built on the Single Six Frame was a specialty of Retired Gunsmith Dave Clements. Proud to say that Bushog and I have the last two he built. In early guns, he built 5-Shot Guns. But, eventually switched to 6-Shot for several reasons. Not because the 6-Shot was superior, but because it was possible. He explained that the cylinder is larger than that of a S&W K-Frame. It also has offset lock notches whereas the S&W's is directly over the chambers. Plus, Dave hardened to 42 for superior strength. I had him build the cylinder in mine from 17-4 Stainless because I love the strength and characteristics of 17-4. Ronnie and I discussed this a number of times. He's also a fan of 17-4. Clearly other steels work extremely well too. This was a preference, not a requirement. Whether you use 38 Special Brass or 357 Brass (deep seating) you end up with the same available power. The 5-Shot should be a winner any way you look at it... Mine... singleactions.proboards.com/thread/34595/pictures-clements-38-44-single
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Post by bigbore5 on Mar 1, 2024 14:25:15 GMT -5
A deep seated 357 is a 38, as pointed out. Personally if I were looking for a pair for the 357 carbine I would get a NM flattop or a Three Screw. They'll take full throttle 357mag forever and not be fazed while allowing longer oal.
For a small game revolver, you will be hard pressed to beat a 32H&R or downloaded 327.
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Post by bearskinner on Mar 1, 2024 23:04:33 GMT -5
I think the nice thing about the 5 shot Single Six 38/357 is being able to shoot some heavy bullets 160, 180’s in a nice little package. I have SS’s in 22, 22 mag, 32H&R, 327, 32-20. This would make a nice addition.
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Post by northerngos on Mar 1, 2024 23:21:45 GMT -5
A deep seated 357 is a 38, as pointed out. Personally if I were looking for a pair for the 357 carbine I would get a NM flattop or a Three Screw. They'll take full throttle 357mag forever and not be fazed while allowing longer oal. For a small game revolver, you will be hard pressed to beat a 32H&R or downloaded 327. A 327 is on my long list, I have wanted one in a single six since I saw the ones Bowen did with a sw barrel, too too cool! I am a bit leery of hearing damage and am looking forward to the .38 for predator calling and rabbit hunting. Every time I think I just need one more to be content…
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Post by northerngos on Mar 1, 2024 23:27:55 GMT -5
The 38 Specials built on the Single Six Frame was a specialty of Retired Gunsmith Dave Clements. Proud to say that Bushog and I have the last two he built. In early guns, he built 5-Shot Guns. But, eventually switched to 6-Shot for several reasons. Not because the 6-Shot was superior, but because it was possible. He explained that the cylinder is larger than that of a S&W K-Frame. It also has offset lock notches whereas the S&W's is directly over the chambers. Plus, Dave hardened to 42 for superior strength. I had him build the cylinder in mine from 17-4 Stainless because I love the strength and characteristics of 17-4. Ronnie and I discussed this a number of times. He's also a fan of 17-4. Clearly other steels work extremely well too. This was a preference, not a requirement. Whether you use 38 Special Brass or 357 Brass (deep seating) you end up with the same available power. The 5-Shot should be a winner any way you look at it... Mine... singleactions.proboards.com/thread/34595/pictures-clements-38-44-singleI remember reading this thread, but appreciate the reminder. I’m back in that rabbit hole now, trying to cram my brain. Such super cool guns, and you have a great one yourself! I wasn’t aware of the possibility back when he would do them. Ronnie to the rescue! I had been literally wracking my brain for awhile to try to come up with a way to try to pry one away from Bushog, I’d still love to do that some day (that octagon job is gorgeous) but am very excited to have Ronnie build one. 10-4 on the available power, I guess I am trying to hammer out if there is an advantage to either chambering as far as flexibility with available bullets. I was picking Ashley Emerson’s brain about it earlier today, and he brought up a great point with being able to use the heavier old keith designs with the .38 brass. If I had the cash I would do two cylinders…
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Post by northerngos on Mar 1, 2024 23:30:06 GMT -5
I think the nice thing about the 5 shot Single Six 38/357 is being able to shoot some heavy bullets 160, 180’s in a nice little package. I have SS’s in 22, 22 mag, 32H&R, 327, 32-20. This would make a nice addition. It will be my first single six center fire, seems like a perfect piece for predator calling in mountains in the NE. washington, N. Idaho, W. montana zone in deep winter when the bears are sleeping.
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Post by longoval on Mar 1, 2024 23:41:54 GMT -5
I would want mine a six shot 38 special. If I wanted to shoot lightning bolts, I would look to a larger frame. Just my personal preference.
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Post by Encore64 on Mar 2, 2024 6:04:24 GMT -5
So, check this one out. I know it won't do anything the 38 Special won't do if you're a prudent handloader. But, it's still cool... singleactions.proboards.com/thread/19806/harton-357-singleThat being said, the 357 Magnum cannot be built as strong as the 38 Special due to the necessity of having to cut the window longer to accommodate the cylinder. Ronnie fully well knows this and I think he's spot on going with the 38 Special.
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Post by bigbore5 on Mar 2, 2024 9:23:59 GMT -5
It sucks being a working class guy. There's so many cool toys!
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Post by RDW on Mar 2, 2024 11:02:53 GMT -5
So, check this one out. I know it won't do anything the 38 Special won't do if you're a prudent handloader. But, it's still cool... singleactions.proboards.com/thread/19806/harton-357-singleThat being said, the 357 Magnum cannot be built as strong as the 38 Special due to the necessity of having to cut the window longer to accommodate the cylinder. Ronnie fully well knows this and I think he's spot on going with the 38 Special. Yep. I agree Huey. I can do it but it is futile really. However if you look at the cylinders im making closely you will see that the Meat from bore to outer diameter is less than the meat in between cylinder bores..0865 to the outside and .091 between bores. Which by the way is more than a 500 Linebaugh with a 1.800 cylinder diameter. So why not go with the six shot. I have one advantage but it is not so significant that it out weighs the extra round capacity. Also no pawl mods neccasary. I am going to split the difference in the length of the cylinders between 357 and 38 spl and give you 38 special, plus length, and strength. Carpenters 17-4 PH/E is the stuff and you will have problems with cases and primers flattening before you hurt this MAMMY. Look to the lower larger circles. They represent the bore sinking for the case heads at .445. Hell they dont even touch. 6 shot 38 special is a shoe in man! R
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Post by Encore64 on Mar 2, 2024 12:32:49 GMT -5
Ronnie, that's just the facts!!!
I know how the Clements 6-Shots were tested. Trust me, they're tough.
So glad you're picking up this torch!!!
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Post by RDW on Mar 2, 2024 16:50:46 GMT -5
OMG! 192 Bradshaw Martin Powder coated with 11.5 grains of 2400, ( Because that was all i could smash in there) New Starline brass, and a WSP to light that zinger, Oh Ya , PURE LOVE MAN!!!! Buuuuuddddy Boy this one is Magic out of Matthew peakes 5 shooter. Zero bad signs, absolutely zero. Fireball out the ying yang and target shows major signs of el Smashalamadre. It screamed OUCH!!! Case slipped right out and the primer was nice and Round and this one is using the larger Rimfire Firing pin which is a bit larger than the standard center fire pin. Relocated ofcourse. Dont think i would want to shoot this round out of my smith 60 with the 2 inch barrel. Hahaha. Pilin into little bitty groups but i have to reposition my 5 gallon bucket full of sand cause it keeps movin it haha. This is a bad little Hombre here. Crimpin it right around the face just like dave and lee said to on the maximum. still plenty of room to the end of the cylinder. Diggin this one in a Major way. R
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Post by Encore64 on Mar 2, 2024 16:53:15 GMT -5
OMG! 192 Bradshaw Martin Powder coated with 11.5 grains of 2400, ( Because that was all i could smash in there) New Starline brass, and a WSP to light that zinger, Oh Ya , PURE LOVE MAN!!!! Buuuuuddddy Boy this one is Magic out of Matthew peakes 5 shooter. Zero bad signs, absolutely zero. Fireball out the ying yang and target shows major signs of el Smashalamadre. It screamed OUCH!!! Case slipped right out and the primer was nice and Round and this one is using the larger Rimfire Firing pin which is a bit larger than the standard center fire pin. Relocated ofcourse. Dont think i would want to shoot this round out of my smith 60 with the 2 inch barrel. Hahaha. Pilin into little bitty groups but i have to reposition my 5 gallon bucket full of sand cause it keeps movin it haha. This is a bad little Hombre here. Crimpin it right around the face just like dave and lee said to on the maximum. still plenty of room to the end of the cylinder. Diggin this one in a Major way. R Ronnie, how long are you making those cylinders?
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Post by Encore64 on Mar 2, 2024 21:09:17 GMT -5
Ronnie called me, but had already left the shop. He'll measure the cylinders and let us know.
Definitely look forward to hearing more about these.
I've spent years accumulating 38-44 Data which is literally what these guns are. Also, have the data Clements developed for his guns. Maybe we can do a thread on load data for these guns one day...
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