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Post by bigbore5 on Feb 29, 2024 12:28:53 GMT -5
Most of my revolvers can out shoot me on my best days.
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Post by hunter01 on Feb 29, 2024 14:00:40 GMT -5
Most of my revolvers can out shoot me on my best days. I only have one revovolver i feel that way about, a FA 83 .454c. When you can sit down any given day and hammer out sub 1" groups at 25yds, the revolver is likely capable of outshooting you. When you have a gun like that, it eases your mind that a gun not cooperating isnt induced by recoil, technique, or loading practices. Something in the "symphony of parts" as Mr Bradshaw would so eloquently say, isnt quite right yet.
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Post by hunter01 on Feb 29, 2024 14:20:37 GMT -5
Any thoughts on marking those two chambers and confirming the flyers? Plan on bumping up loads to see what it'll do? Brian Pearce did some 50k PSI loads in a Redhawk and it was impressive. Cleaned up the gun, gauged the cylinder again, and loaded those 2 chambers with primerless cases. I shot three 4 shot groups. All groups had 3 shots basically cutting a hole and one shot out. If you overlayed those 9 shots, they would have all fallen in the same small group.This blows my tight throat theory out of the water, but worse than that, it opens the door to other much harder to correct possibilities. One thing that did just come to mind is runout in my bullets after checking them. Im using a lee sizer. I PC and then size to .430, install the check, and size base first. It it very difficult to get the bullet started perfectly in the die base first. Its possible some are slightly canted going in the die causing runout at worst or a crooked base. They look good but i dont have a spinner to check runout.
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Post by Encore64 on Feb 29, 2024 16:08:25 GMT -5
Perhaps pick up a box of factory jacketed bullets and give those a try.
I won't ever commit blasphemy and suggest factory ammo.
It won't prove what is wrong, but may show what isn't wrong.
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Post by bigbore5 on Feb 29, 2024 16:45:31 GMT -5
I use a Lyman 450 with the check seater stop thingy in it. It seats checks square and complete every time. If you have a Lyman or rcbs it's the best system.
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Post by hunter01 on Feb 29, 2024 19:37:18 GMT -5
All i have is the lee sizers. I did make 2 discoveries that may have plenty to do with fliers. First, i went to clean the gun and found that the grip frame was about to fall off! Every single fastener was LOOSE. I have no idea how i didnt feel it while shooting. A few minutes and some lock tight addressed that. The other issue is my sight has been sliding forward on the rail. It doesnt have a cross pin that fits into the slots. When i mounted it i made a mental note of that a mounted it flush with the back of the rail. I had totally forgot about it and then noticed if had slid forward almost 1/2" during the course of all the shooting. After i fixed the grip frame issue i decided to do a ladder with some plain base bullets and my universal equivalent csb-1. I ran from 8-9.5gr in .5gr increments. 9.5 shoot pretty good so i loaded my last 9 pieces of primed brass with 9.5 and shot them all in a group. It was round and measured 1 1/4". We are making progress! I have been using mixed brass that i purchased cheap as once fired. All the primer pockets have been tight but i did split a piece on thw first firing so its likely seen more use than that. Anyway, i would never dream of mixed brass in a rifle for utmost accuracy, but i never really thought it would matter as much in a straight walled handgun case. How much accuracy am I potentially leaving on the table using mixed brass?
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Post by Encore64 on Feb 29, 2024 19:46:27 GMT -5
Well, first off, thanks for investigating and reporting honesty. Most would simply have blamed BFRs and stuck with it.
Probably impossible to put an accurate estimate on the brass. Only way to eliminate the possibility is eliminate the variable.
Sadistic I know, but this piqued my interest as the first report I'd ever seen on a BFR that wasn't accurate.
Probably the biggest variable in pistol brass is alloy. Different strengths of brass provides varying neck tension that effects powder combustion. Could easily cause flyers.
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Post by bigbore5 on Feb 29, 2024 19:51:02 GMT -5
I get best groups from brass from the same lot, once fired, then trimmed.
Being honest though, I rarely sort my brass unless I am specifically setting up an accuracy project. Then my group is fired from the Ransome rest to remove the variable of myself. For regular shooting, I don't shoot well enough to notice.
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Post by Encore64 on Feb 29, 2024 19:57:36 GMT -5
Also, keep in mind, one gun may shoot mixed brass just fine while another may prefer brass from the same lot.
Guns, particularly revolvers, each have their own personalities...
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Post by 2 Dogs on Feb 29, 2024 20:01:45 GMT -5
I once shot a 3 round group at 100 yards on a paper plate with my Harton tuned OMSBH. Since I had not previously shot that sixgun past 50 yards I picked up my Swarovski binos and nearly fell out of my chair as those 3 rounds landed in a tidy 1 1/2”. This from a solid bench rested position. The next 2 rounds, fired with some anxiety, both landed a couple of inches higher than the first three.
My point is, the OP might consider taking himself out of the equation by only loading 2-3 live rounds and the rest empty cases marked with a sharpie so you don’t know if you are going to get a bang or a click. On the next group replace the sharpie marked cases with live rounds. Shoot 2 six shot groups that way and you will certainly remove any doubt as to whether it’s you or the gun.
I know I’m a pretty good shot but more importantly I know why. The OP is obviously a very good shot. I have never had to correct the throats on a BFR and every one I have shot has been a tackdriver. I would run this test to be sure I was a good shot for every shot.
I almost forgot to mention that I would definitely uniform those 2 tight throats so that they were all the same.
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Post by hgunhtr on Feb 29, 2024 20:07:22 GMT -5
i have at least 500-600 brass that isnt starline, i use it for banging around when it doesnt matter, it doesnt go hunting or long range shooting. I seperate the brass for accuracy test down to the difference in the smaller vs the larger head stamping on the starline brass. the more varibles that i can eleminate to get the perfect group the better. i think if you treat your handgun ammo like your precision rifle ammo at least while load development, after that run the powder measure over them and dont worry about it anymore. I am shooting stock rugers with just a slicked up trigger and getting pretty good accuracy. I am glad that you found both issues, both should help tighten things up. do you have any plain base bullets to try till you can figure out something with the bullet runout?
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Post by hunter01 on Feb 29, 2024 20:38:01 GMT -5
i have at least 500-600 brass that isnt starline, i use it for banging around when it doesnt matter, it doesnt go hunting or long range shooting. I seperate the brass for accuracy test down to the difference in the smaller vs the larger head stamping on the starline brass. the more varibles that i can eleminate to get the perfect group the better. i think if you treat your handgun ammo like your precision rifle ammo at least while load development, after that run the powder measure over them and dont worry about it anymore. I am shooting stock rugers with just a slicked up trigger and getting pretty good accuracy. I am glad that you found both issues, both should help tighten things up. do you have any plain base bullets to try till you can figure out something with the bullet runout? Dave, the ladder i ran this evening with csb-1 was plain base bullets. It was also after i discovered the other two issues. Put my last 9 rounds in 1 1/4" at 31yds with no obvious fliers.
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Post by hunter01 on Feb 29, 2024 20:51:04 GMT -5
Well, first off, thanks for investigating and reporting honesty. Most would simply have blamed BFRs and stuck with it. Probably impossible to put an accurate estimate on the brass. Only way to eliminate the possibility is eliminate the variable. Sadistic I know, but this piqued my interest as the first report I'd ever seen on a BFR that wasn't accurate. Probably the biggest variable in pistol brass is alloy. Different strengths of brass provides varying neck tension that effects powder combustion. Could easily cause flyers. What do you consider accurate? With the fliers the gun was shooting lots of 1.5" groups at 31 yds. I see a lot of people are tickled $hitless with a revolver thats shooting 1.5" at 25yds. Im not one of those people. Yes, 31yds is only 25% more than 25yds, but 125yds is also only 25% more than 100yds. When i get to the =< 1" full cylinder groups CONSISTENTLY, i will be happy. What do your BFR's shoot day in and day out? Maybe we should start a thread. Five 5 shot groups at whatever distance you choose but shot consecutively on the same target. I for one would love to see what to strive toward from some of the top guns and top shooters. Sounds fun!
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Post by Encore64 on Feb 29, 2024 20:57:49 GMT -5
The limiting accuracy factor of my BFRs is me. I'm usually quite happy if I get 1.5" or under at 25 yards with open sights.
The 357 Magnum gave me quite a few 1" groups. I can't say if it was more accurate or if the extra weight made it sit more stable on the bags.
The only BFR I've ever scoped was my 45-70. It shot 4" @ 100 yards when I did my part. Two other shooters got the same results. And yes, I was tickled $#!+less...
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Post by hunter01 on Feb 29, 2024 21:11:17 GMT -5
The limiting accuracy factor of my BFRs is me. I'm usually quite happy if I get 1.5" or under at 25 yards with open sights. The 357 Magnum gave me quite a few 1" groups. I can't say if it was more accurate or if the extra weight made it sit more stable on the bags. The only BFR I've ever scoped was my 45-70. It shot 4" @ 100 yards when I did my part. Two other shooters got the same results. And yes, I was tickled $#!+less... You are happy with 1.5" out of your BFR's at 25yds and mine thats shooting 1.5" at 31yds with fliers is the first inaccurate BFR you ever heard of? Im in the twilight zone! Yes, im using a red dot that is subtending about 2.5" at that distance. I can hold opens much tighter than that. I actually tried this gun with opens before i put the sight on it and the front is too tall to zero, or even get close.
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