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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 23, 2024 20:45:33 GMT -5
instead of leaving us hanging, let's hear it. This age hardening of antimony containing alloys can be accelerated at higher temperatures, i.e. heat treating the bullets. This is most commonly done by sizing the bullets first (since lead alloys work soften, and hence sizing would negate a significant portion of the hardness imparted by the heat treating process) then heating them to about 450° F in the oven and quenching by dumping them in cold water. The hardened bullets are then lubed using the same sizing die that was used before (so that no actual sizing takes place). Done in this manner, bullets cast with an alloy containing 5% antimony, 0.5% tin and 0.17% arsenic, which would normally have a Brinnell hardness of a little over 16 (after aging for 6 days), can be hardened to a BHN of over 35 (see Dennis Marshall‘s chapter “Stronger Bullets with Less Alloying“ in “Cast Bullets” published by the NRA). Notice that this alloy is not tremendously different from the common wheelweight. Much the same sort of result can be obtained by casting with a hot mould and water quenching directly (place a towel over the water bucket with a 4“ slot cut in it to contain the splashes). Mould temperature is critical for maximum effective hardness. Bullets water quenched from a “cool” mould (i.e. one from which the bullets were smooth and shiny) were found to be similar to air-cooled bullets. But bullets dropped from a mould that was “hot” (i.e. hot enough that the bullets were frosty over their entire surface) were found to have BHN of over 30 when water quenched. In a separate study, such a mould was found to have temperature of 430° F, very similar to the optimum oven temperature found in the heat treatment study (ca. 450° F). I don’t normally cast quite this hot, but even so, water-quenching WW alloy routinely gives me bullets with a Brinnell hardness of 18. One of the advantages of hardening bullets in this manner, as opposed to using linotype to make them hard, is that they are tougher and not as likely to shear or fragment on impact. |
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44mag
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Post by 44mag on Feb 23, 2024 20:53:15 GMT -5
instead of leaving us hanging, let's hear it. This age hardening of antimony containing alloys can be accelerated at higher temperatures, i.e. heat treating the bullets. This is most commonly done by sizing the bullets first (since lead alloys work soften, and hence sizing would negate a significant portion of the hardness imparted by the heat treating process) then heating them to about 450° F in the oven and quenching by dumping them in cold water. The hardened bullets are then lubed using the same sizing die that was used before (so that no actual sizing takes place). Done in this manner, bullets cast with an alloy containing 5% antimony, 0.5% tin and 0.17% arsenic, which would normally have a Brinnell hardness of a little over 16 (after aging for 6 days), can be hardened to a BHN of over 35 (see Dennis Marshall‘s chapter “Stronger Bullets with Less Alloying“ in “Cast Bullets” published by the NRA). Notice that this alloy is not tremendously different from the common wheelweight. Much the same sort of result can be obtained by casting with a hot mould and water quenching directly (place a towel over the water bucket with a 4“ slot cut in it to contain the splashes). Mould temperature is critical for maximum effective hardness. Bullets water quenched from a “cool” mould (i.e. one from which the bullets were smooth and shiny) were found to be similar to air-cooled bullets. But bullets dropped from a mould that was “hot” (i.e. hot enough that the bullets were frosty over their entire surface) were found to have BHN of over 30 when water quenched. In a separate study, such a mould was found to have temperature of 430° F, very similar to the optimum oven temperature found in the heat treatment study (ca. 450° F). I don’t normally cast quite this hot, but even so, water-quenching WW alloy routinely gives me bullets with a Brinnell hardness of 18. One of the advantages of hardening bullets in this manner, as opposed to using linotype to make them hard, is that they are tougher and not as likely to shear or fragment on impact.meaning they are not guaranteed on all big game.... maybe up to what ? In your experience of course. |
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 23, 2024 21:12:00 GMT -5
meaning they are not guaranteed on all big game.... maybe up to what ? In your experience of course. Too many if's in the equation. The alloy they are talking about is a mixture of lead, antimony, and tin. Sometimes a pinch of arsenic. This is what you use to find in older wheelweight. If you make bullets from WW's and just air cool them and let then age harden and you hunt with them it will mushroom and shear the pedals. If you water drop or heat treat them they might be too hard for any mushrooming. I don't think I'd go after the real big game with them like say Cape Buffalo etc. if you want through and through penetration. Another good mixture is what we call 50/50. That 50 % ww's with 50% lead. It's more ductile and little less resistant to shearing the mushroom pedals. This alloy would be excellent for whitetail deer, wild boars, mules, probably Elk too. As I mentioned elsewhere hollowpoints of this alloy penetrate, then the hollowpoint fully expands doing a lot of damage, sheds the pedals, then acts like a Nosler Partition and the core will most the time exit the deer. |
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Post by northerngos on Feb 23, 2024 21:34:23 GMT -5
Reading through this thread and the redhawk thread it is apparent that this is a troll. The goal is not to learn but to be unpleasant in an attempt to get a rise out of people. Numerous contradictions in everything from game anatomy to bullet types give it away. It took awhile for me to realize because it is such a rarity here. I can’t remember the last time I saw it here actually. Sometimes it’s nice to be reminded how great we do have it here on this forum, even if it is through realizing that such a series of unpleasant interactions truly are nearly unheard of. I have no doubt it will resolve itself soon.
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44mag
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Post by 44mag on Feb 23, 2024 21:49:55 GMT -5
And the trolls are the ones who THINK they have all the answers
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 23, 2024 22:29:00 GMT -5
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Post by bigbore5 on Feb 23, 2024 22:59:58 GMT -5
At any rate, even if the troll is being a nuisance to the general membership here, there's been much useful information put out here that can be very helpful to those who are actually here to learn.
Though it's plainly obvious that the troll will never get it, information about bullet selection, casting techniques, hardening, alloys, hollow points performance, and more have been brought together here in one thread for those who wish to learn
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44mag
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Post by 44mag on Feb 23, 2024 23:06:01 GMT -5
You people are really something else, l ask questions to get information and god forbid l disagree ohhhhh man l’m a troll. But if your heady buddies disagree that’s ok. Joke.
Just because you have your way doesn’t mean other people don’t have theirs. You guys have two major things against you, you overestimate yourselves and you underestimate others which makes you bigots. I’ve seen the best debate and not come to a rational decision.
Not everything is relavent
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 23, 2024 23:12:29 GMT -5
You people are really something else, l ask questions to get information and god forbid l disagree ohhhhh man l’m a troll. But if your heady buddies disagree that’s ok. Joke. Just because you have your way doesn’t mean other people don’t have theirs. You guys have two major things against you, you overestimate yourselves and you underestimate others which makes you bigots. I’ve seen the best debate and not come to a rational decision. Not everything is relavent 44man, I removed that post where I said I agree because at the time I didn't know it was you they were talking about. I apologize. I thought it was the other guy that started arguing with and that person has not been back when I explained how to raise the BHN of an alloy. There's much much more on alloys. |
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44mag
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Post by 44mag on Feb 23, 2024 23:36:01 GMT -5
I knew that no need to apologize. It’s fine.
The only knowledge l have is mixing alloys and heat treatment. What else is there?
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Post by bigbore5 on Feb 24, 2024 6:23:09 GMT -5
I knew that no need to apologize. It’s fine. The only knowledge l have is mixing alloys and heat treatment. What else is there? Go to the Los Angeles Silhouette Club website. There's articles there from some experts, indepth reports on some of the science of metallurgy and bullet casting, as well as Glen Frexall's complete book on bullet casting. There's all the information there that you could need to get started. I also recommend you get a copy of Veral Smith's book. I believe he still has some available on his LBT website. It's very descriptive on load development and bullet performance. I also recommend reading everything our treasure of a member John Taffin has written. Both the posts here as well as his many excellent magazine articles and books. Also research posts on here by Lee Martin, booletdesigner, Whitworth, Sixshot, and damn near everyone else who is a regular contributor. There more combined genuine experiences on this site giving real education than anywhere else. |
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marlin35
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Post by marlin35 on Feb 24, 2024 13:49:31 GMT -5
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44mag
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Post by 44mag on Feb 24, 2024 15:26:36 GMT -5
Considering I came off on the wrong foot maybe some of you guys can give me your COMPLETE back ground of what do carrer and gun related without an attitude and I can get an idea of WHO I can trust for the right information. Sound reasonable or am I being a troll ?
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 24, 2024 15:38:35 GMT -5
Considering I came off on the wrong foot maybe some of you guys can give me your COMPLETE back ground of what do carrer and gun related without an attitude and I can get an idea of WHO I can trust for the right information. Sound reasonable or am I being a troll ? You're being a turd! NO NO I'm just kidding. Was you carer a typo that is carrie? I carry a Combat Commander Stainless Gold Cup Colt in 45acp of course. For something smaller I carry a S&W 9mm Shield. |
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Post by bushog on Feb 24, 2024 15:42:44 GMT -5
Considering I came off on the wrong foot maybe some of you guys can give me your COMPLETE back ground of what do carrer and gun related without an attitude and I can get an idea of WHO I can trust for the right information. Sound reasonable or am I being a troll ? Everybody here is a liar….especially me…. |
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