gnappi
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Post by gnappi on Apr 8, 2023 8:51:00 GMT -5
The snub Alaskan looks like they recast the Super Redhawk without the scope mount and rifled the short frame end. I've read that the barrel is a separate part number but there's no way I see a way to melt blend a barrel into the frame with zero seam. Am I incorrect?
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 8, 2023 9:46:11 GMT -5
The snub Alaskan looks like they recast the Super Redhawk without the scope mount and rifled the short frame end. I've read that the barrel is a separate part number but there's no way I see a way to melt blend a barrel into the frame with zero seam. Am I incorrect? ***** Gary..... the Super Redhawk Alaskan is the brainchild of Eric Unger, who managed Ruger's LOST WAX (investment casting) foundry in Newport, New Hampshire. Unger also set up the foundry in Prescott, Arizona and refined the Sturm, Ruger titanium operation. Eric Unger is a ceramics engineer and inveterate trekker, whose forays into the White Mountains inspired him to design the Alaskan as a hiker’s hand cannon. While I’ve handled a prototype, I don’t recall whether the frame casting was drilled & broached rifled, or sleeved. Unger also had one or more titanium prototypes made; it’s easier to make a “tree” of frame castings than just one. Barrel sleeves have become popular with S&W and Ruger. My guess, the barrel sleeve is a cost expedient, although, properly done it may be as accurate as the conventional barrel-screwed-to-frame method. With the extended barrel socket of the Super Redhawk, it may offer better fir-up and accuracy. And allow, on the SRH, different material & heat treatment between frame and barrel. Investment casting is dirty, high-heat work. To cast a frame around a sleeve would be a nightmare. According to Bill Ruger, Jr., steel is poured somewhere around 2,200 to 2,600 degrees Fahrenheit, with stainless pouring a bit hotter than chromemolydenum. Don’t quite me on the ballpark temperatures. After various stages of dipping the wax “tree” into progressively thicker ceramic slurries, the ceramic mold i heated to melt out the wax. Recovered wax is used to make “gates” for future molding. New wax is used for the wax part. Pour temperature is adjusted to the alloy. Nitrogen is the main purge for a clean pour. Oxygen is the enemy of a good casting, especially disastrous on titanium. Machine vibrators break off the ceramic to expose the cast parts. which then must be cut from the tree, cleaned & machined. Imagine exposing a nice barrel through that fire & brimstone. Do not know how Ruger, or S&W, fits a sleeved barrel. Wouldn’t surprise if, to remove barrel ruins it. David Bradshaw |
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gnappi
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Post by gnappi on Apr 8, 2023 10:05:08 GMT -5
Thanks David, that pretty much matches up with my visualization of how they would do it.
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Post by pacecars on Apr 8, 2023 10:38:20 GMT -5
If you want to see how the wax molds work with making a frame this video by Shiloh Rifles shows it well. Not a handgun but it gives you an idea. Shiloh truly makes their guns lock, stock and barrel youtu.be/aXoP1f26FDE |
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edk
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Post by edk on Apr 8, 2023 11:08:39 GMT -5
David mentioned that investment casting is it dirty, high heat work. I’ll second that. To quote Elmer Keith “Hell, I was there”. Back in the late 70s during college summers I worked for an investment casting firm that was (and still is ) Ruger’s competitor here in New Hampshire. It was by far the nastiest work I had ever done.
David’s description of the process is pretty accurate. I have experience in all of those phases from coating the wax trees in ceramic through to melting out the wax and pouring steel in the foundry. My first day on the job was setting up the molds to be filled with steel. The ceramic molds must be preheated to a little over 2000°F before they can be filled. You would push a button where a motor driven chain would raise the door to the preheat oven, lean in and pick up a mold by hand. Then you would walk with the mold to a bed of sand, stepping on a pneumatic pedal valve rendering the sand bed fluid so you could then plant the mold into it. You were supposed to carry the molds with your arms out straight because of the heat coming off of them. However, they could weigh up to 75 pounds. It didn’t take long for my arms to be tired and I figured I could bend my elbows, resting my upper arms on my chest, I quickly concluded that was not a good plan when my facemask distorted and melted onto my face.
After a few days of setting up molds, I graduated to pouring steel into them. Two guys would do this holding a bucket attached to the middle of a 6 foot long bar repeatedly filling it and dispensing the 3000°F steel into the investment castings. Hot? Heavy? The day I decided I didn’t want to work in the foundry anymore and switched to making the investment casting molds themselves was when some guys decided it would be fun to drop acid on break. Later they would proceed to create the particular alloy by adding various metals to the base steel, which in the process develops a tremendous rainbow light show of sparks and fire. For those guys I guess it was excitement in a boring life of being trapped in an investment casting foundry. For me it was motivation to finish college.
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rkrcpa
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Post by rkrcpa on Apr 8, 2023 13:14:41 GMT -5
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bman
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Post by bman on Apr 9, 2023 10:12:58 GMT -5
My understanding is that the barrel of the Alaskan is screwed into the extended frame with an adhesive on it. I've read the adhesive causes issues when attempting to port those barrels. Could be BS but that's what I've read - on the interweb.
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Post by leftysixgun on Apr 9, 2023 11:52:10 GMT -5
The barrel sleeves in my last two Alaskans have NOT impressed me! Both of them needed to be fire lapped in order to shoot cast bullets!
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aciera
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Post by aciera on Apr 10, 2023 0:27:17 GMT -5
The sleeved model 69 I took apart was no sweat.
The sleeve is keyed to the frame.
A friend who loved the Mountain Guns wanted a model 69 in 45 colt…..the consummate 45 guy he was.
He is well known in the gun community……..smith would not do it.
I was visiting his shop and I said let’s do it. He said something about special tool to remove barrel
Before I went there someone on here told me an easy way to remove it.
Tried it and worked great. My buddy smiled and knew he could have his 45 Colt 5 shot.
And setting the barrel/cylinder gap was SO easy.
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Post by CraigC on Apr 10, 2023 11:12:44 GMT -5
I think people overthink it. It's basically an SRH with no scope mount cuts and the barrel is cut flush with the frame. It's not a sleeved barrel like the Redhawk or newer S&W's. I know Jack has to mill out the barrel and then chase the threads to get them out.
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 10, 2023 11:21:04 GMT -5
The sleeved model 69 I took apart was no sweat. The sleeve is keyed to the frame. A friend who loved the Mountain Guns wanted a model 69 in 45 colt…..the consummate 45 guy he was. He is well known in the gun community……..smith would not do it. I was visiting his shop and I said let’s do it. He said something about special tool to remove barrel Before I went there someone on here told me an easy way to remove it. Tried it and worked great. My buddy smiled and knew he could have his 45 Colt 5 shot. And setting the barrel/cylinder gap was SO easy. ***** aciera.... please outline your S&W M-69 SLEEVED barrel disassembly. My familiarity is with the Dan Wesson, which has a SHROUD. I, for one, am curious of various methods for attaching a revolver barrel, and how if affects: * Accuracy. * Forcing cone support. * Adjusting cylinder gap. * Barrel face erosion. * Durability. David Bradshaw |
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aciera
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Post by aciera on Apr 11, 2023 1:21:11 GMT -5
The sleeved model 69 I took apart was no sweat. The sleeve is keyed to the frame. A friend who loved the Mountain Guns wanted a model 69 in 45 colt…..the consummate 45 guy he was. He is well known in the gun community……..smith would not do it. I was visiting his shop and I said let’s do it. He said something about special tool to remove barrel Before I went there someone on here told me an easy way to remove it. Tried it and worked great. My buddy smiled and knew he could have his 45 Colt 5 shot. And setting the barrel/cylinder gap was SO easy. ***** aciera.... please outline your S&W M-69 SLEEVED barrel disassembly. My familiarity is with the Dan Wesson, which has a SHROUD. I, for one, am curious of various methods for attaching a revolver barrel, and how if affects: * Accuracy. * Forcing cone support. * Adjusting cylinder gap. * Barrel face erosion. * Durability. David Bradshaw Certainly David. John and I were in the shop working. Hadn’t worked together for a while and catching up on projects. He mentioned he liked the Model 69 and asked S&W to do one in 45 Colt. And they wouldn’t. He had a 4” ala S&W Mountain Gun. I had a 2 3/4 ala “what I could find” He said you needed a special tool to remove the barrel and I said I didn’t know that, ignorance is bliss and would try. I’ve probably have used 150-200 pounds worth of Cerosafe………always have some. Like breath mints. Someone here told me about removal of the two piece. Cramming a tissue in the forcing and putting a hex wrench in the end of the barrel and filling the barrel full of Cerosafe. Lett it cool and it turned out smoothly……..no “breaking it loose. Ol Wyatt sort of gave me a sideways look and his “ well shit” smile and all was good. But that’s the way we have been for 30 years. He knew what he wanted and I knew how to do it. He knew. Barrels, cylinders, tooling for grip frame casting. We were different but it worked right. The shroud David is keyed very nicely to the frame. No twist. And the barrel threads were smooth as silk. Takes a bit longer without the special tool. But turn the barrel long and cut back the back of the barrel till you get .002-.003 cylinder gap. Melt and remove with Cerrosafe and all. The threads are so smooth you can use a torque wrench to tighten to get position right. Really is simple……… And was going to be the first revolver I finished for him instead of the other way around when I did his 4” model 69. I made him parts. I removed the variable with parts he hated to make. I made jigs and fixtures……..so he had repeatability. My darex drill sharpener solved his dull drill problem 30 years ago. With Diamond wheels it solved his carbide drill problem. Sorry to ramble. It’s late and Dustin and I have been talking and I’m flying home in a few hours. Back to stay in November. Move in and play in the shop. David….sorry to ramble…..miss my Lo Buddy. The barrel turning is very easy and predictable with collets. Very little stress on the barrel. Same dimension for forcing cone. We didn’t have a chance to finish when last I was here. And so busy getting everything ready this time for the move. In November we will finish and give a report. I hope to have a RH 2 piece by then for a 480 and cut away for 284 shotshells |
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 11, 2023 6:36:16 GMT -5
aciera.... thank you for explanation. My picture of the M-69 barrel still seeks clarification.
The Right Hand twist on Dan Wesson Arms barrels acts through "bullet torque" to tighten Right Hand threads. However, this doesn’t guarantee the barrel stays tight, as the same “bullet torque” simultaneously acts to loosen the muzzle nut. A cartridge with substantial “bullet torque,” in this case the .44 Magnum, slowly creeps the barrel into the frame.... to where the barrel closes the cylinder gap and pinches the cylinder. This is why silhouetters used Loctite----both red & blue----to secure barrel to frame.
Of the S&W M-69, though I read the “barrel is keyed to the frame.” You clarify the shroud keys to frame. Sounds like the barrel acts as a cap screw to tighten the shroud against the frame... so that the barrel is tensioned similar to DWA, without a muzzle nut. Which begs the question: how to adjust cylinder gap? If the S&W M-69 barrel acts as a cap screw, a Right Hand twist should act to tighten right hand threads to frame.
Perhaps, to distinguish between BARREL SHROUD and SLEEVED BARREL:
* SHROUD----barrel not permanently joined to outer cover.
* SLEEVE----barrel glued, soldered or otherwise permanent joined to outer cover.
David Bradshaw
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aciera
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Post by aciera on Apr 11, 2023 7:05:05 GMT -5
David;
I’ll just trim to fit…..
And I agree on the tightening but it would have to “crush” the shroud and it has a good amount of bearing surface.
It has a flange at the end.
Time and rounds will tell
An john(and everyone) gets older john wanted a
A lighter double action.
He always enjoyed talking to you. We spoke of you last time I saw him.
When we were buildings…….sadly for the last time.
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Post by bula on Apr 11, 2023 7:23:01 GMT -5
Tongue-in-cheek mode activated. I have this picture in my head of a truck load of SRH's with a crate of hacksaw blades being driven to Alaska. Seriously, if my hands were bigger, mine would have stayed here.
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