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Post by 2 Dogs on Nov 17, 2022 17:50:59 GMT -5
One of my buddy’s told me he experienced flyers using PC and lube on his cast slugs.
My limited tests show no such.
Anybody got any thoughts or experiences to share?
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Post by silcott on Nov 17, 2022 18:17:12 GMT -5
I gave my dad some powder coated 41 bullets that I got from Dick. My dad doesn't trust bullets that are just PC. He runs them through his lube sizer. He claims that they shoot great.
Justin
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Post by bradshaw on Nov 18, 2022 5:56:17 GMT -5
One of my buddy’s told me he experienced flyers using PC and lube on his cast slugs. My limited tests show no such. Anybody got any thoughts or experiences to share? ***** Fermin.... as Bill Ruger, Jr., quoted a German engineer from, I think he said, the 19th century, ‘One carefully designed experiment is worth a thousand expert opinions.’ A cajun friend on the edge of the Atchafalaya says, “Everything tastes good cooked in fat!” As for this shooter, along with Dick Thompson, Tank Hoover, Lee Martin, why put lipstick on a POWDER COAT bullet that already exceeds expectations? David Bradshaw |
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Post by contender on Nov 18, 2022 9:07:59 GMT -5
I've heard of a few folks who've lubed their PCed bullets. My first thought is "Why?" The purpose of the lube is to help the bullet seal to the bore and not lead up things. A PCed bullet doesn't need either quality.
I'll be following this to see if anybody has any SERIOUS test results to see if it makes any differences.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Nov 18, 2022 9:36:30 GMT -5
***** Fermin.... as Bill Ruger, Jr., quoted a German engineer from, I think he said, the 19th century, ‘One carefully designed experiment is worth a thousand expert opinions.’ A cajun friend on the edge of the Atchafalaya says, “Everything tastes good cooked in fat!” As for this shooter, along with Dick Thompson, Tank Hoover, Lee Martin, why put lipstick on a POWDER COAT bullet that already exceeds expectations? David Bradshaw That’s true old friend but the simple answer is “because I can” since I have to run them thru my Star sizer anyway…. Sixshot originally sent me some PC .357’s that sat in my shop for some time before I tried them. I put gas checks on them and ran them through the Star sizer and went ahead and lubed them. I tried them in a particularly troublesome .357 BH and the first shot hit a 65 yard plate dead center. The second shot hit the first shot. Was it the PC or the GC? Since then I’ve shot gas check PCbullets without the lube with very good results. There’s no question that the PC didn’t bring that sixgun to life. I’m just asking to see what our learned forum members have observed. |
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Post by 2 Dogs on Nov 18, 2022 9:49:53 GMT -5
I've heard of a few folks who've lubed their PCed bullets. My first thought is "Why?" The purpose of the lube is to help the bullet seal to the bore and not lead up things. A PCed bullet doesn't need either quality. I'll be following this to see if anybody has any SERIOUS test results to see if it makes any differences. Is it not a reasonable question? And you almost have it right. What bullet lube is supposed to do is create a “grease gasket” between the bullet lead and the barrel steel and escort the cast bullet out of the muzzle. This occurs when the sixgun doesn’t have say oversized throats or restriction in the bore. That PC bullets will shoot well out of such a sixgun proves that PC can mask dimensional deficiency in your sixgun. |
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,631
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Post by jeffh on Nov 18, 2022 10:17:26 GMT -5
Being no expert on the PC thing, any assertion I may seem to make is more of a question, because I don't KNOW, I'm wondering out loud based on limited experience.
PC has been working well for me in my traditional cast loads, meaning - I'm not shooting 3kfps+ and busting wood chucks at 400 yards with it. I've not pressed the pressure/velocity thing, because I get fully useful velocities for what I do with rather "soft" bullets at rather modest velocities. I am seeing no better or worse accuracy over tumble lube or the gooey old "NRA formula" using PC.
I BELIEVE that PC is preventing a build-up and possible baking-on of my beloved traditional gooey lube or amazingly useful tumble-lubes - within a suppressor. I have followed through by using the same PC'd bullets in my like-chambered revolvers (357 Mag) at sub-sonic, velocities, which is how I shoot the 357 in my 3" revolvers anyway.
One thing which has been a question in my mind, as I do this, and don't "clean" my guns after use, is whether my bores are as protected ad I've come to believe they are when I use a lube. Note that I have no data to confidently assert that this "protection" happens or if it matters if it does happen, but, especially with a lube groove full of gooey stuff, I get this wonderful-smelling and feeling greasiness all over the outside of my guns. Wiping off the black stuff leaves a light film. I have assumed for many years that the bore is benefiting form a similar treatment and have gone years without "cleaning" ( or needing to ) bores in rifles and handguns I shoot only cast in, which is everything but the 223.
Shooting PC, the bores seem "dry," as does the inside of the suppressor on the carbine. It makes me a little nervous and I have disassembled the can multiple times to observe how things are going in there. I don't THINK the residues left from PC are hygroscopic, and the residues in the can dissolve easily with Ed's Red or the old Mil-Spec Break-Free, which I apply as a test more than to actually clean.
THIS would be MY only reason that I see as a potential reason to lube PC'd bullets, SO FAR from MY limited experience, but SO FAR it is still a question based upon question.
For a long, long time, I've wiped my rifle bores with ONE patch, lightly wetted with Ed's Red, followed by one dry patch, after a shooting session (not after a "business-related" shot or two), and have mostly only run one dry patch through revolver barrels (and pushed any debris our of the chambers) after a session with the revolvers. Currently, I'm "cleaning" both similarly when using PC and I'm watching.
For the sake of establishing whether my methods are a valid (in others' eyes) contribution in this argument, I may not be taking PC as seriously (yet) as everyone else, because it wouldn't be worth the extra effort, compared to how easy ad quick it is for me to generate a pile of ready-to-load bullets. I am not shooting at great ranges, fusing over more than .01" on groups or competing. I like to see five holes under an inch at fifty with my pistol-cartridge carbines, half an inch with rifle-cartridge rifles, and strive (struggle for, these days) under 2" at 20 to 25 with my compact DA revolvers. So, MY standards may make my "data" less meaningful to others.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,631
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Post by jeffh on Nov 18, 2022 12:00:39 GMT -5
Being no expert on the PC thing,... .....Let's tackle the dry bore thing that was mentioned. How about when shooting jacketed bullets? Do you clean your bore right after every shooting every time?....Us old fellows tend to resist new thing and I've been shooting lubed cast bullets all of my life. Hard to accept something new until it's thoroughly proven and accepted by me. Much insight there and very much appreciated. Much of that dovetails with much of what I'm thinking too. Thank you.
Point taken on the jacketed/cleaning idea.
I trust that cleaning between uses when shooting jacketed is a valid practice and good example, but, for many reasons, when I did shoot jacketed, I shot so infrequently that I did at least wipe the bore with the original Break-Free, let it sit a couple hours and then wipe it almost dry again before setting the rifle aside again. So, I do not have personal experiences in this, rather only what I consider good information from many very experienced shooters.
The "micro-climate" here offers up wild swings in temps and humidity combinations in mere hours that anything steel is subject to rust seemingly spontaneously. I've had tools in my shop go for years without developing any rust, only to reach for something one day and there it is - the scourge. This makes me a little paranoid, especially after my mom's SAKO Vixen's barrel was ruined, sitting in a corner in her bedroom one day - after decades of being stored that way. I'm just glad it was my dad who'd last used it rather than me! He ended up paying to have it rebarreled.
This does not make my way RIGHT, it simply means that I lack the experience you mention, but I do still consider it sound and valid.
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Post by bula on Nov 18, 2022 12:11:40 GMT -5
Some people want to take every step they can. Brings them peace. If the target is ok with it , I'll not naysay. Seems more testing required. Same bullet without, other sizing, etc..?
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,631
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Post by jeffh on Nov 18, 2022 18:28:58 GMT -5
I agree with you on that SAKO storing. If you're going to store for long time best to put it away with a thorough cleaning and some preservative lube. You may even get those desiccant white cardboard like tubes to put in your bore.
In the case of the SAKO, it sat at the ready for vermin/varmint chores. It may have sat for a couple months at most. That's the thing though - you don't know if it will get used every couple weeks or every couple months. Same way with my 223, which is the only gun I shoot jacketed in. I think it's been a couple years now since I shot that, but I inspect the bore couple months or so to make sure the spiders and bugs haven't made a home in the muzzle. ......................................................................
I know the first time I sized pc bullets that I though the linkage was broke on my luber/sizer (I thoroughly cleaned the H&I die of lube) because it sized so easily. Also they are so slippery I find myself dropping a lot more of them then if they were pc coated.
I'm glad that I can help.
Dangint! I keep waiting to hear someone else say how much harder they are to size.
I've wanted to mention something about how "slippery" PC bullets are suppose to be, but have held back, waiting to hear someone else say this first, but my experience sizing PC is definitely different. They're slippery to handle, and the smaller the more aggravating, but they go through a clean sizer die like a very hard and very over-sized bare lead bullet and they SQUEAK going through the die.
They ARE larger in diameter than they start out naked, so that explains some of it, but they SQUEAK when I seat SIZED bullets, and definitely offer more resistance going into my cases.
I keep a Q-Tip and a tube of LEE case lube handy while sizing them, and give the ID of the die a swipe every ten or so bullets. LEE says it dries and that you don't have to wipe it off the cases (but I do anyway) so I figure it should be OK frying on the bullet. Haven't seen anything shocking on the targets, so...
I have been unable to make out whether they are squeaking as they go down the bore though. Sorta half-kidding and half not on that last comment.
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Post by starmetal47 on Nov 18, 2022 19:39:18 GMT -5
I agree with you on that SAKO storing. If you're going to store for long time best to put it away with a thorough cleaning and some preservative lube. You may even get those desiccant white cardboard like tubes to put in your bore.
In the case of the SAKO, it sat at the ready for vermin/varmint chores. It may have sat for a couple months at most. That's the thing though - you don't know if it will get used every couple weeks or every couple months. Same way with my 223, which is the only gun I shoot jacketed in. I think it's been a couple years now since I shot that, but I inspect the bore couple months or so to make sure the spiders and bugs haven't made a home in the muzzle. ......................................................................
I know the first time I sized pc bullets that I though the linkage was broke on my luber/sizer (I thoroughly cleaned the H&I die of lube) because it sized so easily. Also they are so slippery I find myself dropping a lot more of them then if they were pc coated.
I'm glad that I can help.
Dangint! I keep waiting to hear someone else say how much harder they are to size.
I've wanted to mention something about how "slippery" PC bullets are suppose to be, but have held back, waiting to hear someone else say this first, but my experience sizing PC is definitely different. They're slippery to handle, and the smaller the more aggravating, but they go through a clean sizer die like a very hard and very over-sized bare lead bullet and they SQUEAK going through the die.
They ARE larger in diameter than they start out naked, so that explains some of it, but they SQUEAK when I seat SIZED bullets, and definitely offer more resistance going into my cases.
I keep a Q-Tip and a tube of LEE case lube handy while sizing them, and give the ID of the die a swipe every ten or so bullets. LEE says it dries and that you don't have to wipe it off the cases (but I do anyway) so I figure it should be OK frying on the bullet. Haven't seen anything shocking on the targets, so...
I have been unable to make out whether they are squeaking as they go down the bore though. Sorta half-kidding and half not on that last comment.
Well that makes me think. I use Eastwoods Ford blue. Maybe different brands, different colors make a difference. Another thing to the popular Hi-Tek powder may react different to. Honestly mine are easily size and definitely don't make any noise. I do try to size them as close as possible to jacketed size in the same caliber before I pc them as my friend told me. Let me know what type pc you're using.
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Post by sixshot on Nov 18, 2022 20:32:41 GMT -5
Not sure if we're mixing up rifles & six guns here but either way when you are power coating you are adding diameter to your bullets. Also some guys are water quenching which is a whole "nother" ball game. If you are water quenching it's very important that you size in the first hour or two for best results. That is if you don't want a bent handle on your expensive Star sizer.
Also, and I've said this many times in the past, it's best if you want easy peasy sizing results then dump your powder coated bullets in a large pan & spray them with Hornady One Shot Case Lube, it's the one with the black lid, not the red lid. That one is a gun lube! This will allow your bullets to go through the Star machine much easier than if it were dry. If it's dry you will very possibly stick the very first, or the second bullet. It's a good idea to wipe just a bit of lube down inside the die before inserting the first bullet, even though the first one has been sprayed because the die will be dry.
Yes powder coated bullets are slippery but they are still over size & need to be sized. If you're using an RCBS or one of the Lee sizers it's not as much of a problem because you have more leverage, but with that Star machine you are going to stick a bullet or bend your handle, trust me.
Casting is suppose to be simple, and it usually is but some guys just enjoy the chase, that is they enjoy making things more technical than they need to be with powder coating & then solving the problem, many times a problem that was never there in the first place. That's just human nature, plus most guys are smarter than I am.
Powder coating is tough, I think something like in the mid 30's BHN from what I've read, not sure. Anyway, if your baking stage is correct you can drive some soft bullets very fast with excellent results if bullet fit is correct. Sometimes a gas check will add better accuracy & sometimes it's just a waste of expensive gas checks, you just have to give them a test drive & see. If my bullets call for a gas check I use them, if they are plain base then I powder coat & usually end up with a bullet that shoots outstanding considering my old age, bad eyes & lack of good excuses.
Dick
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,631
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Post by jeffh on Nov 19, 2022 0:00:52 GMT -5
Well that makes me think. I use Eastwoods Ford blue. Maybe different brands, different colors make a difference. Another thing to the popular Hi-Tek powder may react different to. Honestly mine are easily size and definitely don't make any noise. I do try to size them as close as possible to jacketed size in the same caliber before I pc them as my friend told me. Let me know what type pc you're using.
Starmeatal,
Eastwood, Ford Medium Blue.
I am sizing mine to .001" less than I do non-PC bullets. Just seemed to work better in the revolvers. The carbine doesn't care one way or another, so it gets what the revolvers want.
sixshot, yes, I'm mixing rifles and revolvers, but not mixing up results. Either has been easy, but the carbine is less picky. I can't complain about PC'd shooting results at all in either.
Not quenching. I try to keep it simple, plus have no need for hard bullets. I can drive air-cooled wheel weights to 1800 fps+ in the 222, 30/30 and 357 Mag and Max with a gas check and tumble lube with no issues - no lead, no loss of accuracy, so no need to quench.
YES, the PC'd bullets come out of the oven bigger, which would explain the extra effort to size them, compared to the same bullet not PC'd, but even the sized bullets are also harder to seat in cases and squeak when I do, like a nail being pried out of an old oak board. Just seems odd that it's that there is such a noticeable difference from seating a .001" larger non-PC'd bullet.
I've also sized bare (no lube) bullets in a cleaned/de-greased sizing die without the resistance I notice with the PC's ones.
My preference is to simplify as much as practicable, and the PC is meant mostly for the suppressor, but I was on a roll with my easy-bake oven last winter and PC'd some of most of what I shoot just to try it.
I'm not doubting what others say - I'm just wondering why I'm experiencing something which seems different. Putting a little case lube in the sizing die once in a while isn't a big deal, I even do that with my carbide pistol dies. I mention it because the squeaking seems contrary to the slipperiness of these bullets in my fingers. I don't think there is any real problem with this, it just makes me wonder.
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Post by sixshot on Nov 19, 2022 3:36:20 GMT -5
I don't have the squeaking problem that you mention. If it's just one caliber then I expect it is the expander that is causing your problem, not sure. As far as water quenching I seldom ever do it because it just isn't necessary with powder coating in most cases. I did it on my 325 gr bullets in the 45 Colt for Africa because I didn't want that Cape Buffalo walking over to me & slapping the gun out of my hands. First bullet went all the way through, second one stopped up against the off side shoulder, that makes me the winner! Remember what I said about some people be technical & enjoying the chase, sizing the bullet 2 times is that kind of a guy because there's really no need to do it. But some guys, using a rifle might squeeze the difference out of a really good gun & I expect your friend, probably "bullet designer" is that guy. He doesn't talk much but he knows his stuff even if he gets grouchy at me sometimes  Dick |
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Post by boolitdesigner on Nov 19, 2022 6:24:37 GMT -5
Not me Dick, but I know the guy also. He is like that. I'm the guy who won't touch powder coat because it won't do what I already do.
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