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Post by kings6 on Sept 24, 2022 17:30:26 GMT -5
Okay guys, some of you have been shooting 1911 guns for years and I occasionally hear about using the 38 Super. I will do the on line research but those of you with boots on the ground experience, what is your take on the round? One of the guns in the brothers safe is a Para 1911 SSP in 38 Super so I am trying to decide if it is worth buying for myself or if it is not worth buying another set of reloading dies and components.
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woody
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,116
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Post by woody on Sept 24, 2022 17:46:57 GMT -5
Interesting post. I’m going to watch this one. I’ve wanted a .38 Super for ever. Just never bought one but it’s next on my list to buy. I’ve been buying all the ammo I’ve come across have dies etc.
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Post by bigbore5 on Sept 24, 2022 17:52:30 GMT -5
I used the Para Ordnance extensively in the 80's and 90's action shooting. Tough steel, but factory springs and barrel didn't stand up as well to the high volume of rounds. Easily swapped.
The 38 Super we shot was way hotter than any standard round to make major. That beat alot of guns to death.
Today that gun is still an excellent shooter and it's a good cartridge. More power than the 9mm with less recoil than the 10mm or 45acp.
The only reason I stopped competition with the Para was I finally could afford to have a Caspian framed gun built by Nowlin.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 24, 2022 19:43:47 GMT -5
IMO, the Super benefits from its longer length when used in 1911 ish guns. Handloaded the 9mm can be brought very close to what a Super will be, unless you are running very hot loads but the the same can be done with the 9mm as well. The Super benefits from lower pressures with its top loads in comparison to the 9mm, the longer length in the Super allows for more reliable cycling without needing to go to special magazines or magazine filler inserts. Sometimes you can load the 9mm longer and compensate for that discrepancy, loaded to 1.18-1.20 in length will get you the compensation needed. My Super used in competition will actually run 38 Super, 38Super Comp, 38TJ, and 9mm Luger, the middle two were popular competition rounds that brass would get mixed up with normal 38 Super brass. I still occasionally run 9mm Luger thru my 38 Super without issue, however they are mouse fart loads used for speed steel competitions.
I went with 38 Super because at the time, running the shorter 9mm reliably thru the 1911 platform was not a sure thing yet, it has been perfected now. My other 38 Super is a Commander and I had a separate top end made in 9mm strictly for speedy steel shoots.
Trapr
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Post by kings6 on Sept 25, 2022 13:40:08 GMT -5
Looks like the 38 Super isn’t ringing any of my bells so I won’t be buying this one from the family.
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Post by jfs on Sept 25, 2022 13:59:25 GMT -5
Colt ad`s from back in time... 
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JM
.375 Atomic
Posts: 2,428
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Post by JM on Sept 25, 2022 15:59:12 GMT -5
Might visit: www.1911Addicts.comA few members with Super 38, 9mm, 9x23, combos. I've not had the pleasure of shooting one. |
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Post by contender on Sept 25, 2022 16:24:51 GMT -5
My experiences are also the same lines as bigbore5. USPSA shooting. I've never owned one,, but I have shot several over the years. Well received by the Open class USPSA shooters for quite some time. I know it was THE caliber for quite a while in Open Class.
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Post by taffin on Sept 25, 2022 16:41:13 GMT -5
Okay guys, some of you have been shooting 1911 guns for years and I occasionally hear about using the 38 Super. I will do the on line research but those of you with boots on the ground experience, what is your take on the round? One of the guns in the brothers safe is a Para 1911 SSP in 38 Super so I am trying to decide if it is worth buying for myself or if it is not worth buying another set of reloading dies and components. BUY IT!!! |
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Post by taffin on Sept 25, 2022 16:44:27 GMT -5
Loading the Super .38 Part I: Standard Weight Bullets
Handloading by John Taffin
My first .38 Super came about as a result of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA 68). When this was passed we did not know exactly what effect it would have on firearms availability. At the time all of the major grocery stores, drug stores, and department stores in my area had gun departments. With the passing of the bill I immediately went to the closest store and bought the three semi-automatic pistols they had. They were all Colt Commanders and chambered in .45 ACP, 9mm, and .38 Super. The latter proved to be a real disappointment as it would not stay on a piece of notebook paper at 25 yards. The reason was the fact the .38 Super headspaced on the very small rim instead of the mouth of the cartridge as did the other two semi-automatics. I sent it to Bill Wilson who installed one of his barrels properly headspaced and the groups immediately shrunk to two-inches and then proceeded to get better. In his 1930 book, “Shooting”, Fitz (John Henry Fitzgerald) of Colt said it was equal in accuracy to the .45 ACP 1911 and superior at longer ranges. So obviously, something went wrong over the following decades. All current .38 Supers are now properly headspaced on the mouth of the cartridge so accuracy is no longer a problem.
The original bullet weight was 130 grains and full metal jacketed loads can still be found at this weight, however most jacketed hollow points or soft points weigh 124 and 125 grains. I have yet to see a box of bullets marked .38 Super, however “most” 9 mm bullets will work. The proper bullet diameter for the .38 Super is .356” while the 9 mm bullets are normally .355”. That is not much difference however it does seem to make a difference to some .38 Super barrels. The only answer is experimenting with each individual .38 Super. I size all my cast bullets .356” for use in the .38 Super and since most of these bullets are heavier than the normal .38 Super bullets we will talk of them in Part II. Some .357 Magnum jacketed bullets which normally measured .357” will also work in the .38 Super. Again it is a matter of experimenting to see what works.
In Part II we will look at loads using bullets heavier than the original 130 grains, however for standard weight bulleted loads we will consider anything at 130 grains or less. For me, with today’s selection, it means jacketed bullets in the 110 to 125 grain range, and 125 grain hard cast bullets. When I acquired my first .38 Super and then had it properly re-barreled by Bill Wilson, the powder of choice was Unique. At the time Speer offered a 125 grain soft point .38 Super bullet which I loaded to 1,300+ fps using 6.7 grains of Unique. This load, and all loads mentioned, should be used with caution and beginning loads should be reduced by a minimum of 10%. Most of my loads today are assembled using Accurate Arms #7, which I think is now distributed by Western Powders as Accurate No. 7. I also still use Unique as well as Universal, Power Pistol, and HS6, however the bulk of my loading is done with #7.
My most used bullets are Hornady’s 115 and 124 XTPs. Loaded over 9.2 grains of #7, the 115 grain XTP does 1,264 fps from a 5” 1911 while the 124 grain bullet clocks out at 1,208 fps. These two loads group 5 shots at 20 yards in 1-1/8” and 7/8” respectively from a Kimber Stainless Steel Target II. In the Wilson Custom 1911 the results are the same. My original Commander also has a preference for these two loads with muzzle velocities right at 1,200 fpsaround and groups in 1-1/4”. My second oldest .38 Super is a Springfield Armory Mil-Spec. This excellent shooting 1911 also groups both of these loads in one-inch.
I also use .357 Magnum bullets which are normally .357” in diameter successfully in the .38 Super. With the Hornady 110 XTP JHP and 125 XTP JHP my loads of choice are 9.5 grains of #7 with the former and 9.0 grains of #7 with the latter. In the Kimber these two loads clock out at 1,302 fps and 1,226 fps respectively and a group 1” and 5/8” also respectively. Switching to the Wilson Custom 1911 the muzzle velocities are 1,293 fps and 1,206 fps, also respectively while grouping in 3/4” and 1-1/4”. These two loads also shoots superbly in the Colt Custom Government Model yielding velocities of 1.319 fps and 1,267 fps respectively with groups of 7/8” and 1”. With the Commander muzzle velocities are right at 1,260 fps also grouping right at 1-1/4”
These are High Performance loads which are not in the least lacking in accuracy, however the reminder once again to start below at least 10% when working up these loads. My standard weight cast bullet of choice in the .38 Super is the Oregon Trail 125 grain round-nosed bullet. My utility load is assembled with 8.7 grains of #7 with a muzzle velocity of 1,100 fps and one-inch groups from the Kimber Target II. Shooting cast bullets in the .38 Super is not a given; they can provide tight groups or look like shotguns patterns depending upon the individual .38 Super.
Loading the Super .38 Part II: Heavyweight Bullets
Handloading by John Taffin
If I could have only one centerfire sixgun there are many I can get along with but if I had my choice .44 Special would be it. After more than 100 years it is still the cartridge of the Sixgun Connoisseur. We don’t have as many semi-automatic cartridges to choose from, however my first choice would be the .38 Super. It is to semi-automatics what the .44 Special is to sixguns; it is also the connoisseur’s cartridge. Choosing the .44 Special and the .38 Super with all the more modern cartridges we have to pick from is a perfect example of: “For those who know, no explanation is necessary; for those who don’t, no explanation is possible.”
Although we call it the .38 Super the correct name is Super .38. Early advertising, the box it came in, and the guns themselves were all marked: “Super .38.” The roots of the .38 Super go back to John Browning’s .38 Colt Automatic. The 1920s were a particularly lawless era and law enforcement needed something more substantially powerful than the .38 Special and the answer came from Colt by increasing the powder charge in the .38 ACP and chambering it in the 1911, the result was the .38 Super with a 130 grain metal piercing bullet at 1,300 fps.
All of us are highly affected by two things, heredity and environment. We have no choice over the former, however usually have at least some choice over what and/or who we surround ourselves with. As a teenager wanting to know everything I could possibly garner about handguns I mostly looked to three gunwriters all of whom had definite ideas on what the best choices were. From Elmer Keith I learned about the .44 Special and the .44 Magnum. Skeeter Skelton excited me about the .44 Special also, however his Magnum of choice was the .357. I first encountered Jeff Cooper’s writing in a paperback book called “Fighting Handguns”; this was in 1958 and Cooper was just starting to become well-known. My deep love affair with the .38 Super began with the high praise Col.Cooper had for the .38 Super. Nearly 60 years ago when Cooper, who always pushed the .45 ACP, published a picture of a custom .38 Super 1911 and stated as a Trail Gun it would shoot rings around any 1911 chambered in .45 ACP especially for targets such as crows and coyotes, I was hooked. The flames of desire were also fanned John Henry Fitzgerald, “Fitz”, as he spoke of the accuracy of the .38 Super in his book “Shooting”.
In the first installment I wrote of my disappointing experience with my first .38 Super and how this was changed positively by the addition of a Wilson barrel properly headspaced. Most of my early loading for this .38 Super was done with two bullets. One was Speer’s 125 grain jacketed soft point which I loaded to a full 1,300+ muzzle velocity using Unique. The other was my favorite .357 Magnum bullet, the Lyman/Thompson #358156 gas checked design. These weighed right at 158 grains when gas checked and lubed. For use in the .357 Magnum sixgun they are sized to .358”, however for the .38 Super I size them down to .356”. I have used anywhere from 5.0 to 6.0 grains of Unique finally settling on 5.7 grains. This load clocks out at 1,200+ fps from a Kimber Stainless Target II and a Wilson Custom both with 5” barrels. THIS IS NOT a load to be approached casually. It is a High Performance load and should be reduced to a minimum of one grain of powder for a starting load.
Shooting cast bullets, especially heavier cast bullets in the .38 Super is a most interesting experience. A load which shoots very well in one .38 Super may result in shotgun-sized patterns in another along with keyholes; that is, bullets which hit the target sideways at 20 yards. If they work, they work well; if they don’t, it can be very frustrating.
One of my most used heavier cast bullets in the .38 Super is the Lyman #358311 which is a round-nosed bullet originally designed for the .38 Special. My load of choice is 5.0 grains of Unique. In the Kimber Target II or the Wilson Custom it clocks out right at 1,065-1,075 fps with a five-shot group at 20 yards of one-inch. Cast hard combined with the round nose designed results in a flawlessly feeding load it just about any .38 Super. For a SWC bullet which is much more effective I mostly use the two RCBS .357 Magnum bullets, the #38-150KT and the #38-158GC. The former is plain-based while the latter is a gas checked design. With their SWC shape for dependable feeding they must be seated with the front shoulder flush with the mouth of the case. My standard loads for both of these is 5.0 grains of Unique. With the #38-150KT the velocities are from 1,050 fps to 1,100+ fps depending on which .38 Super is being utilized. This load gives 1-1/4” and 1-1/8” groups in the Kimber and Wilson 1911s respectively, however the great surprise is how well it shoots in a Colt Special Combat Government Model. This particular Colt can be very picking about cast bullets, however it is exceptionally accurate with this load grouping in one-inch. This same load under the #38-158GC also shoots well in the Kimber and Wilson but groups are almost 3” in the Colt. The answer is not simple; one just has to experiment.
For a commercial hard cast bullet I mostly use the Oregon Trail 147 FP. Over 8.0 grains of AA#7 this load clocks out at 1,170 fps and groups in 1 inch or less in most .38 Supers. Switching to the Hornady 147 XTP and 8.6 grains of AA#7 results in muzzle velocities of 1,170 fps. This is the most accurate load I have found grouping in 5/8” in the Kimber Target II. Hornady’s 140 grain .357 Magnum bullet also works well in the .38 Super. Loaded over 8.5 grains of AA#7 results in muzzle velocities from 1,130 to 1,170 fps and very small groups.
All of these loads should be approached with caution and worked up accordingly.
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Post by taffin on Sept 25, 2022 21:40:38 GMT -5
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Post by rjm52 on Sept 26, 2022 21:02:18 GMT -5
If you like the 1911 and have never shot one in .38 Super you will be in for a pleasant experience... Like John, if I had one semi-auto centerfire handgun left it would be a .38 Super...picking from the ones I have would be difficult however.
Have been shooting .38 Super since 1980 and rarely am I out of the house without one.
Shot a Dan Wesson Guardian in an IDPA shoot yesterday and last month it was a Kimber Night Patrol with a SIG made .38 Super barrel... Have about everything from a 3" Colt Defender to 6" Kimber and PARA longslides as well as five revolvers and two TC Contender barrels...
YMMV....Bob
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Post by cas on Sept 26, 2022 21:35:42 GMT -5
Never owned one, but that's the plan if I ever order a custom or semi custom 1911, it's be in .38 Super Comp. (I had 9x23 aspirations for years, but decided .38SC would probably do what I need it to. Which is nothing really other than not be .45ACP or 10mm lmao)
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Post by kings6 on Sept 26, 2022 21:51:47 GMT -5
Found a second 38 Super, an EAA Witness Match with adjustable sights and tu-tone. Also several boxes of factory ammo for the guns as well. A local shop wants me to bring them over to check out and see if tey want to buy them for their store.
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