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Post by magman on Dec 11, 2014 12:14:40 GMT -5
Ok, After reading all the info on this site about deep seating bullets, I think I want to try it. The cartridge will be the 44 magnum, the bullet, 250K, and the powder will be either Unique or Universal Clays. So here are my questions:
1) Is it possible to use the same powder charge I currently use? I am not loading at max charges.
2) Is it possible to use the Redding profile crimp die of should I use a standard roll crimp?
Thanks
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 11, 2014 13:49:46 GMT -5
magman.... cannot answer powder charge when you haven't stated yours. I'd drop a grain grain or two, or select a .44 Special charge. Deep seat to place front band.030" to .060" below case mouth. A light roll crimp is fine. roll crimp should not contact bullet.
i have used the Redding profile crimp, but do not use it here. A light or very light roll crimp works.
examples of light cast bullet loads in .44 mag case: * Cast .430" 240 SWC BB; 5.5/HP-38 or Win 231 (same powder); standard LP primer; deep seat in .44 Mag case for COL=1.500". Load capable of five shots in 4"-5" @ 100 yards. velocity roughs 800 fps.
* Cast .430" 240 SWC BB; 10.6/HS-6; standard LP primer; deep seat in .44 Mag case for COL=1.500". Loadcapable of five shots in 5"-6" @ 100 yards. Velocity roughs 1040 fps. I suspect this represents top velocity with accuracy for this bevel base bullet. David Bradshaw
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Post by magman on Dec 11, 2014 15:05:00 GMT -5
Thanks David for your prompt response.
I guess my first question should have been: Is there any benefit to this over using 44 Special brass in the 44 Mag.
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,566
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Post by Fowler on Dec 11, 2014 15:59:43 GMT -5
If you stick with mag brass you wont have a carbon ring in the cylinder to clean and since you are seating more of the bullet in the case it gets aligned slightly better and has far more case neck tension on the bullet guving it more uniform pull. In theory this will reduce your velocity variations shot to shot making it more accurate...
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Post by bulasteve on Dec 12, 2014 9:13:35 GMT -5
Of course, then you negate the function of that forward riding band on the SWC's. Which in Elmer's theory may reduce accuracy ! Head scratching to follow. When reloading, the fun is in the trying, so go for it !
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5shot
.30 Stingray
Posts: 196
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Post by 5shot on Dec 12, 2014 17:04:05 GMT -5
Question on the the technique when you deep seat - are you working up a load to get the same velocity as what you would get with a normal OAL and your standard charge? By reducing the volume so much I am sure one must make adjustments.
Still not clear on the whole concept anyway...are we trying to get more accuracy at a lower velocity but still trying to keep load density up?
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,566
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Post by Fowler on Dec 12, 2014 17:51:53 GMT -5
Question on the the technique when you deep seat - are you working up a load to get the same velocity as what you would get with a normal OAL and your standard charge? By reducing the volume so much I am sure one must make adjustments. Still not clear on the whole concept anyway...are we trying to get more accuracy at a lower velocity but still trying to keep load density up? All of the above, in theory your loads are A: more consistant because of greater neck tension due to more of the bullet being seated in the bullet, B: more effecient as less powder is required to get the same velocities, C: better alignment of the bullet in the cylinder, if seated deaper in the case the bullet should be more centered and aligned with the center of the cylinder bore. I played with it only a bit in the past to get long nosed bullets to chamber in short cylindered guns. David Bradshaw has been proving the gains, all I have ever proven in my limited dealings were that I could get bullets to work in guns if the crinp groove was too long and that you could infact get more velocity out of less powder. He has been testing a 335gr bullet in a 45 colt with 2 crimp grooves and showing gains in velocity and accuracy at 100 yards by seating the bullet deep in the case. His tests were showing the longest crimp groove to be the least accurate and by far the most accurate was the deep seated bullet. I look forwards to testing some of this myself to see if I can replicate any of it...
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Post by magman on Dec 14, 2014 8:44:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the input gents. My plan is to use 7.5 grains of Universal Clays, which is my usual 44Spl load. I was rummaging through my reloading stuff and located a seating/crimp die. I will use my Redding Comp seating die, then crimp with the standard roll crimp.
If this works out, then I will try it with the 475 Linebaugh.
Thanks again.
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Post by paul105 on Dec 14, 2014 11:06:34 GMT -5
You can use a very moderate crimp with your reference load. I use 6.7gr HP38 and deep seat a 240gr laser cast SWCs (cause I have a bunch I got cheap). I just slightly remove the flare. If I remember correctly, David said another advantage of deep seating is that you can seat and crimp in one operation. I load on a Dillon 550, so I haven't tried this but it should work just fine.
One of the reasons I started deep seating was the relative short cylinders on both the FA97 and FA83 when using certain long nose bullets. It also allowed me to use the Lyman/Thompson 265gr SWCGC in my .44 Mag Rossi carbine (wouldn't feed seated in crimp grove).
Two of my favorite loads in .44 Mag cases are the aforementioned 6.5-6.7gr HP38 with a deep seated 240gr SWC (the 250 Keith & 265 Thomspon also work just fine) and 17.5gr A2400 with a deep seated 265gr Thompson (again, the 250 Keith also works just fine). The HP38 load runs right at 880 fps and the A2400 at 1,140fps (both from a 4 1/4" S&W M69).
A couple of days ago, I was sighting in a S&W 629 Classic DX with a C-more STS (small tactical sight). It has a 3.5 inch red dot and no magnification. I set up targets -- 9" paper plates at 25, 50 and 100 yds. For some reason I couldn't get Federal Factory 240gr JHPs to shoot real well, so I tried some of the 17.5/265gr SWCGCs. These were in mixed cases (Starline, Win, Fed, etc) and I just grabbed a handful out of the bag. Shot a 4 shot 5" (3 in 2.5") group at 100 yds (which is good for me). Then went to the 300 yard steel plate (it's 3'x3' or there abouts) and hit it four times in a row -- all from a rest of course. That load shoots well in all my .44s and great in a couple of them.
I've also tried to make a "quiet" load with the FA83 .454 per Veral Smith's method -- Deep seat (bullet base on powder charge) a heavy for caliber bullet with high pressure load of fast burning powder in a revolver with a very tight cyl gap. The theory as I remember it was to get all/most of the powder burned before it hit the bbl/cyl gap. I never really got it to work and absolutely DON'T RECOMMEND this. Best accuracy was about 2" at 25yds at 850 fps with reasonably mild report.
In addition to the .44 Mag, I've deep seated bullets in the .45 Colt and the .475 Linebaugh with excellent results. The RCBS 270gr SAA in the .45 and the RCBS 400gr SWC in the .475 are two such examples.
As always, start conservative and work up.
Sorry for being so long winded.
FWIW,
Paul
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Post by magman on Dec 14, 2014 11:16:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the info Paul. My goal is to prove to myself it works, then might try it in my 475.
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 15, 2014 4:22:48 GMT -5
paul105.... providing information hardly makes you long winded. My original reason to deep seat revolver bullets started at age 18 with pure lead core/copper cup bullets swaged in a C-H Swag-a.Matic press, for .357 and .44 mags. Since there is no crimp groove, I seated the the sharp SWC shoulder deep enough to roll crimp without deforming the sharp, soft lead shoulder. The .357 158 SWC HP half-jacket over 12/Hercules 2400, with CCI 550 in mag case was wonderfully accurate and effective on small game, and a very effective load in the S&W M-19. In .44 Magnum brass, swaged half-jacket 240 SWC over 17/Hercules 2400 proved spectacularly accurate and mild at 1060 fps from my 6-1/2" M-29, and an excellent deer slayer.
Later, with cast bullets, the efficiency continued.
As a note, I do not like high pressure with fast powder in a revolver.
As a way to mate a long bullet to a short cylinder, deep seating should be a valid technique. David Bradshaw
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Post by zac0419 on Dec 15, 2014 9:31:09 GMT -5
I've posted this before but there is some good info on deep seating and pressure.
by M.L. McPherson
For Midrange Revolver Loads Only
Deep Seating
First, seat bullets deeper and roll a gentle crimp over the ogive or driving band instead of into the crimping groove. You will need to reduce powder charge accordingly. Several years ago, I did a piece on this for Handloader's Digest, wherein I developed a table including corrections for every bore size and charge level. Quite boring. For most readers here I can simply suggest the basis of that table and let them do their own figuring.
Measure the percentage change in usable case capacity between load with deep-seated bullet and load with regularly seated bullet, then reduce charge precisely 3/4 of that percentage – e.g., if deep seating the bullet reduces usable capacity (volume under seated bullet) from 10 grains of water to 8 grains of water, percentage reduction is 20%. If, in standard load, correct charge is 5 grains of powder, correct charge in deep-seated load will be about 4.2 grains (20% x ¾ = 15%, 15% of 5 is 0.75, 5 – 0.75 = 4.25). This correction will be very close to ideal.
For those with a chronograph, to match pressure in both loads, look for a percentage velocity difference equal to 1/5 the percentage difference in usable capacity (with both cast and swaged bullets, peak pressure is basis of accuracy). Again, consider our example, if the full-length load launches bullet at 1000 fps, shorter version will generate same peak pressure when it launches bullet at about 960 fps (1/5 x 20% = 4%, 4% of 1000 = 40, 1000 – 40 = 960). Unless volume difference becomes unusually large, perhaps >33%, these corrections will hold with sufficient accuracy for the purpose.
Advantages of deep seating are legion. First, this approach provides for significantly greater bullet pull, which retards initial bullet movement and improves shot-to-shot ignition consistency. Second, more of charge will burn before bullet base clears case mouth and subsequently barrel-cylinder gap, which makes for a cleaner load. Third, with less unused boiler room, primer will do a better job of igniting charge, which improves consistency. Fourth, charge will more nearly fill boiler room, which can significantly reduce powder position effect – see below. Finally, bullet will move further before clearing cylinder, so that more energy will have been imparted into bullet before venting begins – for various reasons, this improves ballistic uniformity.
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 15, 2014 16:44:40 GMT -5
zac0419.... I've managed to deep seat bullets for 52 years without ever getting into trouble, generally producing superior results. For standard magnum category power in straight wall revolver cases such as the .44, conventional seating to crimp groove works best. Common sense combined with experience steers the handloader to sound powder choices an charge weights without having to be a mathematician. My practice is built on safe accurate results without reference to arbitrary factors such a water weights.
By putting the .38 Special beside the .357 Magnum, and the .44 Special beside the .44 Magnum, one sees the basic blueprint for deep seating.
Handloading always requires thought and care. It needn't be complicated. David Bradshaw
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,566
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Post by Fowler on Dec 15, 2014 18:47:50 GMT -5
Mic McPherson will never give you a simple answer no matter what the question is, if you ask a 100 class level question be prepared for a doctoral thesis level answer but you will understand the questions better than when you started. The last paragraph of his statment above is spot on for everything, is it the end all be all answer? Certainly not but this is all a interesting endevor to test and prove if it will help you shoot better if you are so inclined.
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5shot
.30 Stingray
Posts: 196
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Post by 5shot on Dec 17, 2014 13:04:36 GMT -5
Is there much of a need for a crimp at all? With all of the bearing surface inside the case, doesn't the bullet pull far outweigh the crimp?
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