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Post by bradshaw on Dec 17, 2014 14:32:22 GMT -5
5shot.... neck tension on bullet should trump crimp. Some crimp is necessary to overcome belling of case mouth to seat bullet. With light target loads you might get away with no crimp at all, as long as the shell freely chambers. Generally, I bell a bit more for cast than for jacketed, then roll crimp according to recoil. Snyd recently posted a photo of cast bullets, with a WIDE Long Nose bullet; a profile crimp might work fine on such a bullet deep seated.
The target remains the final arbiter of a load.
David Bradshaw
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Post by magman on Dec 17, 2014 16:28:20 GMT -5
Whelp, I got 50 loaded up. Hopefully will get to the range in a few days to try them. Probably load them into my stoutest 44 and give them a try.
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 17, 2014 16:58:12 GMT -5
I have to ask if y'all that are deep seating have modified your dies to increase the tension before moving on to deep seating?
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 17, 2014 17:39:42 GMT -5
tek4260.... no, see no need to modify dies. Loaded round must freely chamber.
David Bradshaw
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 17, 2014 17:55:31 GMT -5
The modification I am talking about is turning the expander plug down until it slides into the sized case without expanding it. At that point it is simply used to flare the case just enough to start the bullet. Then the crimp is really not much more that turning the flare back in so the case will seat. I am just curious how much more tension you get with deep seating and factory expander button, if any, over simply turning the expander down and using normal seating depth.
Also, there are few bullets that seem like they would gain anything with deep seating as they are smaller ahead of the crimp groove. Maybe they shoot better because they seat at a depth deeper than the expander button reached? If that is the case, turning it down would yield a very similar end result.
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 17, 2014 17:57:23 GMT -5
Turning the expander down doesn't affect seating in any way that I can see. I suppose you could seat so deep that you get into the taper of the case and cause a ring at the base of the bullet that would prevent seating.
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,566
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Post by Fowler on Dec 17, 2014 20:32:48 GMT -5
Reading Scovill recently he says that if the expander is too small you can easily size your lead bullet down a couple thousandths killing accuracy. Yes the the base may bump up some when shot but there is certainly a happy medium that needs to managed with the expander die.
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 17, 2014 21:56:51 GMT -5
I'll have to pull some of my bullets and measure. I haven't yet as the results were great and I saw no need.
I will warn that once you do it, an inertia puller will no longer work to pull them. Vice grips work most of the time if you really stand on them when you squeeze them closed.
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 17, 2014 22:16:47 GMT -5
Ok, curiosity got the best of me and I decided to see what I got with my 480 rounds. I sized them in a .476 Lee push through and then lubed them in a 4500 with a .476 die. The alloy is simply ACWW with some solder thrown in and a few pure lead decoy weights per pot. The dies were Lee with the expander turned down until it would slide in the sized case without expanding. The pulled bullets measure .476, same as before loading. Here are some pics to give you an idea of how much tension there is.   I managed to simply tear the bullets off when I tried a straight grip and pull. I had to use the hard bumping method to pull them and it took several repositionings of the pliers to get it. I had to use the big pliers...  Not a good image, but this is the amount of crimp I use on all my rounds. Just enough to remove the miniscule belling I put in the case.  |
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 17, 2014 22:18:32 GMT -5
So, in the case of my 480, the brass does not size down the bullet..... and I have plenty of case neck tension.
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 18, 2014 3:06:06 GMT -5
tek4260.... Don't recall ever turning down an expander plug for a revolver round. Did it years ago for 9x19mm Luger. Shortened the plug, without reducing diameter, for .45ACP. These steps for preventing bullet set back in autos. Seems years ago brass for 9x19mm Luger varied greatly.
My reason for deep seating started with swaged bullets, which had no crimp groove. Accuracy and efficiency lead me to apply similar seating to cast bullets. Accuracy and uniformity are cause to continue the practice. Conventional seating still applies to maximum charges of slow powder.
Cylinder length had me deep seating rifle bullets during development of the .357 Maximum, with excellent results. Forty-four and .41 Mag cases are heavier for caliber than .45 Colt brass. Although the .45 Colt established the length both .357 and .44 Mag would use, the Colt remains, in my experience, more load sensitive for accuracy. Diminishing air space by deep seating makes sense, providing it doesn't raise other problems.
David Bradshaw
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 19, 2014 15:43:36 GMT -5
I'll pull some of my 45ACP, 32 H&R, 44 Mag, and 45 Colt loads this weekend and see if any of the bullets have been swaged down by the neck tension. I am curious if it is a fact or simply ipse dixit.
Mr Bradshaw I agree wholeheartedly in the reduction of air space in all calibers. I always look for a load that is 100% density. I have yet to find a handgun or rifle that shot better below 100% load density with "x" powder. I'm not looking for economy nor maximum velocity, so I choose a powder gives reasonable velocity at 100% density without compression.
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