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Post by sackpeterson on Jun 13, 2012 0:05:04 GMT -5
New to me Hammerli Dakota in .357. It was very dirty when I got it. Nonetheless, these things really do have incredible lock up. This gun is missing its proper hammer safety parts (the import safety prior to the 2 notch base pin). It will work without it, but there’s an obvious aesthetic problem. I tore this gun down to clean it and determine what it means to have a metric gun, as the Dakotas are. I’m looking to identify parts interchangeability with the SAA and it’s true to scale clones. On the Dakota the action components and other innards look identical to SAA parts. For instance, the hammer contours and notches are all in the same position. So theoretically you could replace the funky safety hammer with a Colt hammer. The problem is the screw. It’s too big for the SAA hammer. You’d think you could enlarge that hole on a Colt hammer and put it on however. The other screws are similarly problematic in their metric measurements. The other thing about Dakotas is I keep hearing they had a .256 base pin. I mic’d this one at .254. Lastly…whereas before I thought some of the early Dakotas were Ubertis, its getting clear to me that every last one of them is a Jager, right up to the time Jager stopped building sixguns in 1990. This includes the Super Dakotas, the Hammerli Dakotas, and the Virginians. Obviously something was going on with Hammerli for a time where they were finishing out a superior grade sixgun, but it was still the Armi Jager chasis.  |
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Post by Lee Martin on Jun 13, 2012 8:25:42 GMT -5
Really nice Sack. Yes, Jager did do the majority of the base model Dakotas. But Hammerli produced some Dakotas too outside of he Virginian. Now the early Super Dakotas were Uberti built:  Latter on Jager produced the Supers for Intercontinental Arms. Now the Virginians from '73 - '75 were pure Hammerli. I confirmed that years ago with an ex-Interarms employee. Confusing isn't it? -Lee www.singleactions.com"Building carpal tunnel one round at a time" |
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Post by sackpeterson on Jun 13, 2012 9:31:15 GMT -5
Yes it is. Your fact there is important and true, so I’m trying to noodle an explanation where we are both correct.
I talked to EMF. I was told all the Dakotas before ASM circa 1990 are Jagers. He didn’t call out the Virginians specifically, but said all “the Swiss ones too.”
And the thing is, the Hammerli Dakota and Virginian are an identical build. But the Hammerli Dakota is serialed within the Jager Dakota / Frontier range, and the Hammerli Virginian is not.
What does make the Virginian unique is the two position base pin. Jager adopted one eventually, but it was different from the one Hammerli used. Prior to that, they had both used an identical safety hammer.
I like this Dakota, but having put a modern spring in it, and then shimmed that with a steel washer, it remains oversprung. I’ll have to try a Wolff spring.
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Post by Lee Martin on Jun 13, 2012 10:19:24 GMT -5
I know that Hammerli built the Virginians in-house (as opposed to contracting out to Jager). An old Interarms employee talked about how they went to Europe in '73 to assess the production. That said, I agree....they are very similar to the Jagers. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Building carpal tunnel one round at a time" |
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Post by sackpeterson on Jun 13, 2012 10:27:19 GMT -5
And that kinda stands to reason. Jager never finished out their models as nice as the Hammerlis. I would think the opposite has a chance of being true, that Jager contracted out to Hammerli for some processes.
I can accept that.. IE, that Hammerli's gun is indeed Hammerli's gun. It's merely got a design origin that is Jager's gun.
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Post by Lee Martin on Jun 13, 2012 10:34:44 GMT -5
Sack....if you and I ever get bored or the time to do it, we ought to matrix out the whole EMF-Uberti-Jager-Hammerli-Sauer-Hy Hunter-Great Western lineage. Then again, we'd probably loose our sanity in the process. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Building carpal tunnel one round at a time" |
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Post by sackpeterson on Jun 13, 2012 12:47:52 GMT -5
Right oh. I think I have the same fascination that you do.
While the Sauer gun is a direct clone of the Great Western, I think it’s fair to say that the Jager gun also comes about because of Great Western’s demise and advantageous import prices. In 1962 IAC, whoever they were, set up in LA and had to have known of the fundamental demand for the product.
I have a list of clone builds I’m working on for both historical and grip making purposes. You throw out models with adjustable sights. Those are post-modern, so to speak.
Its only 11 distinct clone builds really. And of course they all come about because of the success or failure of preceding companies.
Great Western
JPSauer
Geroco / Herbert Schmidt centerfire
Jager
Hammerli
Uberti
Armi San Marco
Weirauch
Ruger
USFA
Pietta
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Post by cbroadarrow on Aug 29, 2012 7:12:21 GMT -5
This gun is missing its proper hammer safety parts (the import safety prior to the 2 notch base pin). It will work without it, but there’s an obvious aesthetic problem. I tore this gun down to clean it and determine what it means to have a metric gun, as the Dakotas are. I’m looking to identify parts interchangeability with the SAA and it’s true to scale clones. On the Dakota the action components and other innards look identical to SAA parts. For instance, the hammer contours and notches are all in the same position. So theoretically you could replace the funky safety hammer with a Colt hammer. The problem is the screw. It’s too big for the SAA hammer. You’d think you could enlarge that hole on a Colt hammer and put it on however. The other screws are similarly problematic in their metric measurements. The other thing about Dakotas is I keep hearing they had a .256 base pin. I mic’d this one at .254. Did you ever find if you could replace the Hammerli hammer with a Colt hammer? I am looking at a Dakota 357 with the missing part (hammer safety) and am trying to determine if I could swap the hammers. I have already cut myself on the sharp edge and it gets caugth on stuff all the time. Please let me know! |
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Post by sackpeterson on Aug 29, 2012 9:48:47 GMT -5
It’s doable, but it’s not a direct fit. There are 6 or more considerations:
1 Is a Colt hammer the same width as a Dakota hammer channel? Believe you’d have to thin down a Colt hammer a touch, perhaps on the flat side only.
2 Does a Colt hammer got a hammer screw hole same size as the Dakota hammer screw? Believe you have to hone the Colt hammer screw hole out to the proper metric size.
3 Will the Colt firing pin on the hammer align on center of chamber of a Dakota? Answer is yes it will. Will you need to make/shape and harden a firing pin to achieve proper impact and headspacing? Probably.
4 Will a Dakota time properly with a Colt hammer? It will, with the proper attention to trigger, hand, and bolt action.
5. Are you going to need a new hand, trigger, and bolt? Hand = yes, need a Colt hand. Trigger = maybe, and at that point you may have a screw size issue. Bolt = maybe, and then you may have a screw size issue. I’m kind of hopeful that trigger and bolt are no, do not need new ones
6 If it works, then blend in any contour lines that are kitty wampus.
I don’t think it’s out of the question that a high skilled amateur could conquer this. But if you ask a local gunsmith to do it, you probably need to prep them completely on potential issues lest they get stumped. It figures to be a job that costs several hundred dollars. That isn’t huge $ (these days), so I don’t think it’s too much that its perhaps not worthwhile. But its a pricey proposition re the purchase price of the revolver.
These are good guns, but that hammer safety is by now missing from most of them. Alternately, I think a less expensive solution is for a gunsmith to tig weld up the top of that hammer and contour it for smooth surfaces.
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robl
.375 Atomic
These were the good ole days!
Posts: 1,415
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Post by robl on Aug 29, 2012 10:07:10 GMT -5
"gunsmith to tig weld up the top of that hammer and contour it for smooth surfaces."
Which is what I plan on doing to the .2357 I picked up from you. Very interested to read this, and the history of these, thanks.
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Post by dlhredfoxx on Aug 29, 2012 14:04:37 GMT -5
Sack- that is a beautiful six gun! I hope you're able to get the kinks worked out of her.
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Post by sackpeterson on Aug 29, 2012 15:10:25 GMT -5
I have been buying up Dakotas. I bought that earlier this summer but sold it to Simply Rugged Rob, and then bought a couple more in .22, which is kinda more my speed.
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Post by cbroadarrow on Aug 31, 2012 10:52:05 GMT -5
I was thinking of using the Hammerli for SASS. Do you think it would stand up to the test of having a couple of thousand rounds put down the barrel each year?
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Post by sackpeterson on Aug 31, 2012 11:35:11 GMT -5
I think it would. There’s no question about the cylinder, frame, and barrel. Having been inside a few, my sense is the hand and bolt are more robust than the average late model Uberti or Pietta.
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Post by cbroadarrow on Aug 31, 2012 12:35:18 GMT -5
If something should break I assume then that I am on my own to either build or scrounge parts and I would assume Hammerli does not keep a stock of parts here or at their factory given the guns are no longer in production.
Or maybe I should have asked if a Uberti or Pietta hammer would fit and other associated parts?
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