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Post by jimmarch on Apr 20, 2011 22:03:29 GMT -5
Gents,
My understanding is that the toggle-link levers in 357Mag (mostly or exclusively Italian origin?) aren't "really" 357s in that they peak out at handling about 22k PSI. Which is only fractionally over 38+P spec, well under the current SAAMI standard of 35k and the older 43.5k which DoubleTap Ammo and Buffalo Bore are still brewing up.
If all of the above is correct, the following questions arise:
* Why is Uberti and possibly others selling "357" guns that aren't rated for normal 357 ammo? Why not sell 'em as 38s for the CAS/SASS crowd?
* What happens when you run "real ammo" in 'em? Esp. the really hot stuff. Is there a risk of catastrophic failure, and if so is it possible this failure could be lethal to the shooter? In particular, could the bolt come completely loose and go back through somebody's eye socket? Or is it a matter of just the gun being at risk, and maybe minor hand damage?
I'm working on an article showing that in effect, the "357Mag" caliber has actually split along the lines of "what sorts of guns can practically shoot what"? For example, in theory you could shoot the hottest heavy hardcasts in a 12.5oz S&W or 17oz Ruger LCR357...but in practice, it would feel like slamming your hand in a car door repeatedly. It's basically a matter of "different loads for different guns". In thinking about it, the toggle-link levers might be an extreme outlyer along those lines...but I don't know enough to comment specifically on that case, hence my questions...
Thanks!
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dmize
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 2,834
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Post by dmize on Apr 22, 2011 11:53:37 GMT -5
I read a recent (as in the last year or so) in either Handloader or Rifle Magazine where Dave Scoville (probably my favorite no b.s. in your face author) tested the weakness of the toggle link design,in the test they intentionally blew up at least 1 of the modern replicas,what he found is that the weakness is in the barrel steel and not the toggle link design.
The picture of the test gun showed the top of the barrel opened up like a sardine can but the action was still firmly locked.
So I would come to the conclusion that as long as you don't exceed SAAMI specs for the cartridge its chambered in everything should be perfectly safe.
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Post by jimmarch on Apr 22, 2011 12:04:02 GMT -5
Wait...now I really don't understand.
If that's the case...why are the Italian '92s rated for full-power 357Mag? The barrels ought to be pretty similar, at least in terms of metallurgy and thickness? Or is there some sort of "weak spot" in the barrel's shape, sort of like the "six o'clock notch cutout" in K-frame 357s that can crack?
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dmize
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 2,834
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Post by dmize on Apr 22, 2011 12:09:19 GMT -5
PLEASE NOTE
They INTENTIONALLY blew the gun up,as in seriously overloaded the cartridge, to find how strong the action actually was.
My understanding is that the purpose of SAAMI is that if you buy,say a rifle and it has .357 Mag stamped on it from the factory it should be able to handle factory 357 Mag or reloaded equivelant.
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Post by jimmarch on Apr 22, 2011 12:31:50 GMT -5
Then...why are there scads of warnings all over the 'net about toggle-link guns and limiting the horsepower in 357? Are they all wrong?
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dmize
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 2,834
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Post by dmize on Apr 22, 2011 13:29:41 GMT -5
I am neither an internet or 357 fanatic so I havent the foggiest idea.
I gave you what information I had in regard to the subject that I read in print in a reputed paper publication involving a very unscientific but VERY definate test of the percieved shortcomings of the toggle link design.
Other than my thinking that as prolific as lawsuits these days i would suspect that a major arms maker such as Uberti would have their butt thoroughly coverd.
I have nothing else to add to your research.
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Otony
.327 Meteor
Posts: 722
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Post by Otony on May 10, 2011 21:34:41 GMT -5
Then...why are there scads of warnings all over the 'net about toggle-link guns and limiting the horsepower in 357? Are they all wrong? Lots of things that are "all over the 'net" are just the ramblings of armchair commandos. Just because you read it does not make it true by any means, nor does the repeated assertations of one person spread endlessly indicate any thing other than rote repetition of garbage. Most internet "facts" need to be taken with a bucket of salt. Sort of like the "fact" about Beretta single action revolvers not standing up to extensive shooting. Funny that my Beretta single action revolver in .357 stood up to quite a bit of shooting of factory ammo (not mouse farts). Does that mean that there has never been a real issue with any Beretta revolver? Certainly not! What it does mean is that any incident, no matter how scarce, is instantly transmitted through the world in this electronically driven age of ours, and those few incidents can be blown all out of proportion due to the immediacy and repetition of the "facts". Or to put it more simply, it is just plain easier to hear about stuff nowadays, regardless of the size of the sample. That being written, I have no idea whether or not the toggle-link actions can or cannot stand up to .357 Magnum pressures, but I have read the REAL, FACTUAL, NON-INTERNET reports by Mr. Scovill. I am no expert, but his writings over the last few years have been well thought out and researched....and have quietly been debunking "old saws, truths and eyewitness reports" with, ahem, tests, not words. If that is not sufficient for you, then buy an 1873 (BTW, I have never seen a '66 replica chambered for .357 Magnum) and test it for yourself. That is, after all, the only real way to find out the truth, no? |
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Post by tek4260 on May 10, 2011 21:49:12 GMT -5
Look at a picture of a 73 action with the side plates removed. The toggle action is not "weak" when it is locked. Those small pins just allow it to toggle and have no part of the strength when locked. I have owned several junker 73's. In all but one, the actions were full of dirt and grime from 100+ years and lack of care/cleaning. When I say full, I mean the dirt was neatly packed solid everywhere that a moving part didn't occupy. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Winchester_73_open.JPG/699px-Winchester_73_open.JPG |
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gregg
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 17
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Post by gregg on Jul 18, 2011 13:56:23 GMT -5
With the SAAMI standard of 35k I would have no fear..none...
MY ONLY PERSONAL JUST ME FEAR... I would wipe the chamber clear of oil.
That so brass can grab the camber wall like it is suppose to..
I would bet my body parts Uberti got it right.
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Post by nonpcnrarn on Jul 20, 2011 1:12:06 GMT -5
Wait...now I really don't understand. If that's the case...why are the Italian '92s rated for full-power 357Mag? The barrels ought to be pretty similar, at least in terms of metallurgy and thickness? Or is there some sort of "weak spot" in the barrel's shape, sort of like the "six o'clock notch cutout" in K-frame 357s that can crack? I have a LSI Puma 92 in 480 Ruger. It is basically the same old 92 design but made with modern steel. You see many 44 mag 92 replicas these days. It doesn't mean you can rechamber an old 92 to 44 mag and expect it to last very long. I believe the same is true of the modern replica toggle action guns vs the originals. |
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Hobie
.30 Stingray
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Post by Hobie on Jul 22, 2011 10:19:11 GMT -5
Jim, This is often a topic of dis cussion over on Paco's Leverguns forum. The upshot? Firearms factory chambered for the .357 Mag cartridge are safe to use with factory ammo meeting SAAMI standards. SOME people report that EXTENSIVE use will result in increased headspace. I have never read of a catastrophic failure with a factory load. All examples of toggle link 1873 and 1876 copies and originals (including the "Shrapnel" gun) show that the barrel at the chamber failed not the locking mechanism. Original guns used iron barrels for at least some if not all of their production runs but that isn't true of the reproductions. It is also true that modern Marlin leveractions fail in the same way. The Italians are producing .44 MAGNUM 1873s and feel that they are safe (and they have been proofed) with SAAMI ammunition. I'm certain some of these guns have been shot and yet we've heard of no catastrophic failures. What are you referring to as "really hot stuff"? Original production ammunition or something that approximates those pressures? One more point. The toggle-link guns use a lifter block in which the cartridge in the block is the cartridge stop for the next round in the magazine and so cartridge overall length is critical to proper functioning. The guns can (and have been) built for the .38 Special. |
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Post by jimmarch on Aug 3, 2011 12:01:17 GMT -5
"Really hot stuff" would be the sort of 357Mag loads Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap ammo brews up - from a handgun, 125gr JHP @ 1,700fps or 158gr JHP @ 1,450-1,500. These are up around 43.5k peak pressure, the "old school" SAAMI standard before they dropped it to 35k due to the rise of the various "micro 357s".
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Post by brionic on Aug 4, 2011 17:16:41 GMT -5
Perhaps call Tim and discuss with him. He probably has a lot more experience than all the internet "experts" combined. Maybe place an order at the same time... good ammo, good guy.
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