jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Nov 5, 2010 8:19:03 GMT -5
I am unaware of any problems with the BFR cylinders, but I can guarenty you that a 500 BFR will stand more pressure than will a FA 83 in 500 How do I know this? I have a friend that is an Ammo maker and when testing proof loads in various revolver he bulged the cylinder on a FA 83 in 500 WE at signiicantly less pressure than the the BFR could shoot without damage. Don,t get me wrong, I love the BFR's, There great gun's. I was told that BFR had problems with there early 500S&Ws by BFR's custom shop when I called them to have my .500S&W BFR's cylinder fluted, I was told to look at the cylinder, if it had a brownish tint then it had the better heat-treat and I could send them my cylinder in for fluting if not they wanted the whole gun to refit a new cylinder to my frame before fluting it. As for The BFR being stronger, well here I will disagree, the BFR's cylinder is thinner then the model 83 and I really find it hard to believe Freedom Arms heat-treat or metal isn't up to BFR's standards. Maybe your friend had a weak one or maybe he damaged it with prove loads, sounds like it wasn't a real apple to apple test, being the 83 was chambered in 500WE and the BFR was in 500JRH, really all he proved was that he could destroy a expensive gun. Again I'm not bashing the BFR, I have 6 of them, there great guns, they all shoot better then I can hold, but lets face the facts, comparing a $1000.00 gun to a $2500.00 one isn't fair. I have 1 BFR that came from there custom shop, its the nicest BFR I own unlike my other BFR's timing is perfect and I love that gun but it isn't as nice as my worst Freedom Arms field grade. I will find out if there were any quality problems with early cylinders, but there were none that I am aware of. I have about 8 FA83s, and one BFR in .500 JRH. The BFR and the Freedom are made out of the same material. The BFR is bigger, thus more material equals greater strength. The cylinder is of a larger diameter in the BFR than the 83. My friend owns an ammo company and makes ammo for a living. He wants to know where the upper limits are, so yes it was a proof load and significantly lower pressure than what the BFR withstood with higher pressure proof loads. The only difference between the .500 WE and the .500 JRH is that the WE has a belt and a slightly and insignificantly shorter case. The BFR withstood a load that drove a 440 grain bullet to 1,625 fps, whereas the WE was slower by 125 fps and it damaged the gun by bulging the cylinder. The only way to know how much a gun can take is by running these tests. None of this means the FAs are bad guns, but it clearly proves the strength issues if that matters to you. There is no reason that it would matter to most. The one issue that the BFR has a longer cylinder giving it more load options is an advantage, but that doesn't mean it is better, but it is stronger. They are what they are.
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Post by AxeHandle on Nov 5, 2010 8:58:44 GMT -5
Choose your flavor and pay your money... Any quality built gun can come to my house and never have to worry about anything close to a proof load. I own a few BFRs and a flock of FAs. I recongnize the value packed in a BFR but my personal First choice is FA. Second choice is a custom Ruger. I'll have more of all three.. Looking to add a factory 500 JRH to my 50 bore "set" as soon as it hits the standard production caliber list... Wanting one of the newest Reeder 50 bores on a Bisley Ruger too....
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aciera
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Post by aciera on Nov 5, 2010 10:47:03 GMT -5
My mentor used to say: Speed limits are a rule. Gravity is a law. You can't break the of gravity. You can't break the laes of physics. We may not understand all the laws of physics, but we still can't break them.
That being said, all else being equal:
A larger diameter cylinder is stronger.
A longer cylinder is stronger, if the cartridge is also longer.
A larger chamber pattern with the outside walls still the same thickness will be little stronger, a very minor variable.
Without going to extremes, the ratio of outer wall to chamber to chamber wall is a strange mistress. It is not a direct ratio, things "breath" and move.
Hoop strength gets into the mix when you go to a larger caliber with a flatter cylinder to cylinder or cylinder to OD.
Got to go to Gunblast for some numbers............talk amongst your selves.
And why did they use Bullseye to try to blow it up? Wouldn't a witches brew with Unique have "helped"?
I guess if they were trying to blowup and not proof, they do need help..................
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Post by bigbores on Nov 5, 2010 11:46:15 GMT -5
Just because the BFR has a bigger cylinder doesn't make it stronger, if you measure the BFRs cylinder thickness at the thinnest point, the chamber to the out cylinder wall, you will find about .078" of metal in a .500SW chamber (same on a 500JRH) on the model 83 its .091" of metal. this was done by moving the bore center line down and is why the .500Linebaugh can't be chambered in the model 83. So please explain to a simple guy like my self how the BFR's cylinder with its .078" cylinder wall thickness is stronger than the Freedom Arms cylinder with .091" (+ .013" thicker) Cylinder?
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Post by steveb on Nov 5, 2010 11:58:34 GMT -5
So, ya go down to the gun store and buy a xxxxxx. Its labeled for a given cartridge, you picked it out. Now ya want more, lots more. Sometimes evolution just takes too long to work. steve b
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Nov 5, 2010 13:05:40 GMT -5
Just because the BFR has a bigger cylinder doesn't make it stronger, if you measure the BFRs cylinder thickness at the thinnest point, the chamber to the out cylinder wall, you will find about .078" of metal in a .500SW chamber (same on a 500JRH) on the model 83 its .091" of metal. this was done by moving the bore center line down and is why the .500Linebaugh can't be chambered in the model 83. So please explain to a simple guy like my self how the BFR's cylinder with its .078" cylinder wall thickness is stronger than the Freedom Arms cylinder with .091" (+ .013" thicker) Cylinder? Please explain to a simple guy like me how the lower pressure load in the FA in .500 WE managed to bulge the cylinder while the BFR with its higher pressure load was unfazed? Again, I have a bunch of FAs, and likely more than most here, but I fail to understand why you guys think they are infallible. They're not.
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aciera
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Post by aciera on Nov 5, 2010 13:31:56 GMT -5
The Marquis of Queensbury Rules:
Each to your own corner till a couple of points are cleared up.
We are always measuring at chamber end correct?
Are all Freedom Arms recessed rim? If not, which are?
Are BFRs recessed rim?
Anyone know the heat treat and/or stress releiving on the two cylinders in contention?
Thank you for all info.
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Post by bigbores on Nov 5, 2010 14:28:59 GMT -5
Just because one 83 failed and one BFR didn't (yet) only shows that you managed to blow up a nice gun and most likely stress the other one. You keep talking about using the same loads but it sounded like the model 83 being tested was in 500WE and the BFR was in 500JRH,so ether the loads were different or you miss-loaded one causing it to fail. All gun's are alittle different and even changing cases can cause problems thats why we have starter loads. You keep taking about us guys defending the 83, "but I fail to understand why you guys think they are infallible. They're not." No I never said that, I simply said the model 83 as a general rule is built better and stronger then the BFR, because you found one that might be the exception to the rule really doesn't mean anything to me, the model 83 has be made for 26 years I would be willing to bet one or more lemons have been sold same can be said for the BFR(years built being different of course). I really don't know why your worried what we think, if you think your BFR is better than your Freedom Arms guns well good for you, as for me I think its a real complement to the BFR even to be compared to the 83. As for me I like the BFR and the .500JRH round,and I will be ordering one from there custom shop next year when they become a production gun, but I don't see it besting my freedom arms .500JRH.
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Nov 5, 2010 14:37:58 GMT -5
They were not misloaded and the Freedom gave at a lower pressure while the BFR showed no measurable damage -- again, at higher pressure. The results can't be disputed, they are what they are.
From inside the cylinder to the outside of the cylinder, the FA is about .010-inch thicker than the BFR. From cylinder hole to cylinder hole, the BFR is about .035-inch thicker -- by my measurements.
I never claimed that one was better than the other -- go back and read my post. I said they were different. They are what they are.
Actually, the JRH has been available for years through the Precision Center -- mine is from the Precision Center. They will become a regular production, over-the-counter caliber soon and retail for considerably less.
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Post by bigbores on Nov 5, 2010 14:53:29 GMT -5
Yes and I will save 300.00 by waiting until the 500JRH becomes a production cal. before ordering my Precision Center made BFR. So which cylinder was thicker in the thinness spot? I will give you a hint ( Not the BFR). And again 2 different loads, so an apples to oranges comparison at best. Doesn't really matter anyway I don't shoot max loads let alone let someone test "prove loads" in my guns
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aciera
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Post by aciera on Nov 5, 2010 16:45:09 GMT -5
Were all the failures to the OD of the cylinder? Were any chamber to chamber?
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45c
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Post by 45c on Nov 6, 2010 4:00:52 GMT -5
I am unaware of any problems with the BFR cylinders, but I can guarenty you that a 500 BFR will stand more pressure than will a FA 83 in 500 How do I know this? I have a friend that is an Ammo maker and when testing proof loads in various revolver he bulged the cylinder on a FA 83 in 500 WE at signiicantly less pressure than the the BFR could shoot without damage. Don,t get me wrong, I love the BFR's, There great gun's. I was told that BFR had problems with there early 500S&Ws by BFR's custom shop when I called them to have my .500S&W BFR's cylinder fluted, I was told to look at the cylinder, if it had a brownish tint then it had the better heat-treat and I could send them my cylinder in for fluting if not they wanted the whole gun to refit a new cylinder to my frame before fluting it. As for The BFR being stronger, well here I will disagree, the BFR's cylinder is thinner then the model 83 and I really find it hard to believe Freedom Arms heat-treat or metal isn't up to BFR's standards. Maybe your friend had a weak one or maybe he damaged it with prove loads, sounds like it wasn't a real apple to apple test, being the 83 was chambered in 500WE and the BFR was in 500JRH, really all he proved was that he could destroy a expensive gun. Again I'm not bashing the BFR, I have 6 of them, there great guns, they all shoot better then I can hold, but lets face the facts, comparing a $1000.00 gun to a $2500.00 one isn't fair. I have 1 BFR that came from there custom shop, its the nicest BFR I own unlike my other BFR's timing is perfect and I love that gun but it isn't as nice as my worst Freedom Arms field grade. I agree BFR are fine revolvers BUT not in the same leauge as Freedom arms. A steady diet of proof ammo will break anything IMHO. Phil
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aciera
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Post by aciera on Nov 6, 2010 7:43:51 GMT -5
AWRIGHT, I'LL BE THE BA$TARD: This is not about the last post, but the whole thread. BFR not in the same league as the FA? What the ph@ck are we talking about? ? A. Few Facts; 1. I got no horses in this race gun wise. No FA, no BFR. 2. I have 2 revolvers from John Linebaugh and 3 from Hamilton Bowen. Have had 9 in the past. So not a total rookie. 3. Worked in testing for aircraft parts and the way heat treatment and stress releiving changed results. 4. No degree, just a handle cranker that made the parts, heat treated, stress releived, and tested them. At times making the test and heat treat equipment. 5. Have a narrow experience in metal types, mainly toolsteels and aircraft alloys. 6. FA and BFR could have got their 17-4 from the same heat. 7. BFD on high grade 17-4. It is a dream to machine and heat treat and is relatively CHEAP. Yup, cost if the material is around 5 % of total cost. Try some Titanium or worse yet, the super alloys for cost. 8. So for the cylinder failure thing, there are 2 things to remember: 1. FA and BFR are the SAME. 2. BFR and FA are the SAME. I realize these are the SAME but. you have to understand it. 9. Fit and finish mean NOTHING here, or damn little. 10. 17-4 can be weaker after HT than in the solution (annealed) state. 11. There can be a 30% increase in ultimate tensile with a 75 deg F difference in HT temps. One a little high, one a little low, you got problems. 12. Does either give out HT specs? 13. Anybody done a hardness check on their cylinders before they jumped in with all their facts? NO 14. I'm tired of the cheap shots with no information. 15. JPM475 or whoever made a statement with some observations. Bigbore made some statements. BOTH could be true!!!!! 16. If that BFR got a HT that got it a bit too hard, both could be true. I have donned my flameproof underware, take your best shot. I'm here to build and shoot the best cylinders for everyone.
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Post by AxeHandle on Nov 6, 2010 13:25:18 GMT -5
Don't know much but after 35+ years of DoD and NASA Research & Development and Production... I've been exposed to a little metalugy and NDT/NDI/NDE stuff. I've even seen a little destructive testing through the years.. Bottom line... IMHO in this specific context, other than fuel for argument, all this is so much noise. It just doesn't matter..
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aciera
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Post by aciera on Nov 6, 2010 13:32:38 GMT -5
Don't know much but after 35+ years of DoD and NASA Research & Development and Production... I've been exposed to a little metalugy and NDT/NDI/NDE stuff. I've even seen a little destructive testing through the years.. Bottom line... IMHO in this specific context, other than fuel for argument, all this is so much noise. It just doesn't matter.. Axe: I just want to find out the real factors. I would like to get rid of the fuel for arguement, and see what does matter. For me it is information so I can make fewer mistakes building cylinders in non standsrd calibers. On a side note, I started at Redstone. Were you ever around when the had a Saturn V on the test stand?
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