Harder cup HP on game

[bearskinner]

All these are Miha molds. These are the .501, 400’s thru 390 grain for penta points.
This mold did not have a cup point, so I altered a big HP pin to make a cup point

[45MAN]

bearskinner: A WFN'ish FLAT POINT vs A CUP POINT WITH THE SAME SIZE MEPLAT, SAME MV AND ALLOY, AND NO EXPANSION FOR EITHER BULLET: ANY DIFFERENCE IN TISSUE DISPLACEMENT THE FP vs THE CP? ANY DIFFERENCE IN PENETRATION THE FP vs THE CP?

WITH REVOLVERS AND BIG GAME, I HAVE ALWAYS PREFERRED TO KNOW WHAT MY BULLET WILL LOOK LIKE AFTER IT HITS THE ANIMAL BEFORE IT IS EVER FIRED, i.e. I WANT BULLET INTEGRITY, SO WHAT EFFECT DOES A CP HAVE ON BULLET INTEGRITY vs THE SAME BULLET sans THE CP?

[bigbore5]

I've shot a couple of deer with the cup pointed MP 359-640 (167grs) from the 357 using soft 25:1, powder coated and gc bullets before. They apparently expanded and exited, but a buffalo needs the larger bullet to prevent just making it angry. That's why I started wondering about the cup point.

[messybear]

I have limited use of cup points on game but what I have seen is not much change in penetration. Two animals come to mind a deer and an antelope. Both acww alloy and both with the 512 NOE that he now lists as 449 RF. They weigh about 438 IIRC.
Both were 1200 or a bit more muzzle velocity.
The antelope stopped the slug and I recovered it. The shot was 76yd on the critter bedded and facing me. All were unaware as I poked the barrel around the side of a rock and one eye ball. At the shot all but one ran away and mine never moved except dropping its head. The slug entered the neck and chopped out a section of spine and continued on to stop under hide in rear quarter about 3” from the tail. I don’t think any other major bone was hit other than a rib high in back. Slug was beat up pretty good from hitting spine but retained weight was 367.
It still penetrated straight enough to stay in critter.
This worked out great but for the op uses I think heat treated to harden and toughen alloy would be good. I agree with op that the cup might be better. If hard, it kind of has a cutting edge and I think that might be benifitial.

[messybear]

The deer kill -
Boom deer drops from a shot that I think clipped the spine in upper chest cavity. Not really any diffence that could see in damage to critter. I tracked the bullet down in the snow and recovered it. It upset a small amount to look almost like a cup in a wad cutter. No weight lost.
As for if they hit harder, I suppose they do but the animals weigh so much more than the bullets that I doubt it makes a lot of diffence. Maybe that’s the reason the deer dropped at the shot I just don’t know. I have seen that when bullet clips or bumps spine with no visual damage. Just haven’t shot enough critters with cups.

[messybear]

It does make me wonder about the op expirience on the hippo. What would a hard sharp edged cup point have done in that situation. I would have to think it would have done better. But I think the key is going to be hardness. Maybe even need a copper bearing alloy for toughness and hardness.

[bearskinner]

On heavier game, or just plain mean critters, I will start with a harder mix when casting. I will air drop the bullets, but after powder coating I water drop the bullets right out of the oven. The “sizzle” I get from the water cooling lets me know I just added a couple grades of hardness to them. Again, I don’t hardness test them, but I can tell as I size and gas check them, they are definitely harder than air cooled, and if you wait a couple weeks to size them and check them, they get harder with time. The problem about recovering a bullet from game, is they usually blow thru and keep going. I seldom recover a bullet except when testing in my bullet trap system.

[bigbore5]

Those JDJ SSK solid bullets served me well for the couple of years I used them. Mostly for finishing shots on downed game to the spine. Often just paying the insurance. But that Redhawk was always with me in the bush.

The hippo surprised me as much as I did it. We were several hundred meters from the Limpopo. Middle of the night and I stepped out to answer natures call and drop off my beer rental. It grunted. I drew. It charged. Flashlight in one hand and Redhawk in the other (little guy still hanging out of my zipper, flopping around in the breeze no less). First shot goes right above the snout, striking the sloping skull and skidding along it. It left spiderweb fractures at impact but didn't punch in.

The beast turned at the shot allowing me a side skull brain shot at about 5ft. Too close. I actually had blood splatter on me from the blowback mist.

I believe the angle of the truncated cone matched the angle of the skull slope how it impacted enough to cause the skid. It's the only time in a couple hundred animals I dispatched with it that it failed to show at least adequate penetration. But with any of the big 10, that one time is enough to kill you.

[bigbore5]

Also found this:

[45MAN]

Sept 19, 2024 7:25:33 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

Those JDJ SSK solid bullets served me well for the couple of years I used them. Mostly for finishing shots on downed game to the spine. Often just paying the insurance. But that Redhawk was always with me in the bush.

The hippo surprised me as much as I did it. We were several hundred meters from the Limpopo. Middle of the night and I stepped out to answer natures call and drop off my beer rental. It grunted. I drew. It charged. Flashlight in one hand and Redhawk in the other (little guy still hanging out of my zipper, flopping around in the breeze no less). First shot goes right above the snout, striking the sloping skull and skidding along it. It left spiderweb fractures at impact but didn't punch in.

The beast turned at the shot allowing me a side skull brain shot at about 5ft. Too close. I actually had blood splatter on me from the blowback mist.

I believe the angle of the truncated cone matched the angle of the skull slope how it impacted enough to cause the skid. It's the only time in a couple hundred animals I dispatched with it that it failed to show at least adequate penetration. But with any of the big 10, that one time is enough to kill you.

THAT WAS AN ENCOUTER TO MAKE MARK SULLIVAN JEALOUS, AND BTW YOU "passed the stress test".

[boolitdesigner]

If you play with various alloys with air cooling, PCing, heat treating etc. enough, you will find that the percentage of antimony in the alloy determines and LIMITS you on the performance you get. Harder (in terms of BHN) is not always better,in fact it can be a hinderence if it is achieved by alloying components. Very low antimony content with tin percentage being 1/8 of that with heat treating used allows a lot more latitude on what you can do.

[seminolewind]

This is a visual pertaining to the performance of a cup hp bullet in wet newspaper. It expanded more than I expected. These are powder coated .452 bullets fired from a BFR 454 Casull at about 1200 fps into wet newspaper at 12 yards. The large HP was 300 gr, penetrated 10” and retained 162 gr weight. The cup hp weighed 315 gr, penetrated 12” and retained 283 gr weight. I didn’t cast the bullets so don’t know the alloy, but they aren’t what I would consider “hardened”.

imgur.com/a/JUyg8gh

[bigbore5]

Looks about like what I was getting from 50/50 soww/coww back when I could actually get wheel weights.

[bigbore5]

Sept 19, 2024 7:57:07 GMT -5 45MAN said:

Sept 19, 2024 7:25:33 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

Those JDJ SSK solid bullets served me well for the couple of years I used them. Mostly for finishing shots on downed game to the spine. Often just paying the insurance. But that Redhawk was always with me in the bush.

The hippo surprised me as much as I did it. We were several hundred meters from the Limpopo. Middle of the night and I stepped out to answer natures call and drop off my beer rental. It grunted. I drew. It charged. Flashlight in one hand and Redhawk in the other (little guy still hanging out of my zipper, flopping around in the breeze no less). First shot goes right above the snout, striking the sloping skull and skidding along it. It left spiderweb fractures at impact but didn't punch in.

The beast turned at the shot allowing me a side skull brain shot at about 5ft. Too close. I actually had blood splatter on me from the blowback mist.

I believe the angle of the truncated cone matched the angle of the skull slope how it impacted enough to cause the skid. It's the only time in a couple hundred animals I dispatched with it that it failed to show at least adequate penetration. But with any of the big 10, that one time is enough to kill you.

THAT WAS AN ENCOUTER TO MAKE MARK SULLIVAN JEALOUS, AND BTW YOU "passed the stress test".

And just to think that I moved to SA to help deal with my PTSD! I've woken to a lioness peeking into my tent, several buffalo and elephant charges, and more mamba encounters than I ever want to remember. As the Rhodesians are quick to remind you," This is Africa, not Hollywood."

[sixshot]

Ha! I guess your boots dried out pretty fast the next day Don't wait very long to size water quenched bullets if you use a Star sizer. Lee sizers, it won't matter.

Dick