NOTES ON PRE-WAR COLT DA 32 AND 32-20 REVOLVERS

[45MAN]

I HAVE BEEN WANTING TO SHARE INFORMATION ON THIS FORUM RE THE WONDERFUL, PRE-WAR, DOUBLE ACTION COLT REVOLVERS IN 32 COLT NEW POLICE (32 S&W LONG) AND 32-20. I AM SHARING THINGS I AM FAMILIAR WITH AND THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A COMPREHENSIVE NOR SCHOLARLY/AUTHORITATIVE WORK, AND THERE ARE VARIOUS NAMED MODELS THAT WILL NOT BE REFERENCED ALTHOUGH MANY ARE JUST VARIATIONS OF, e.g. THE COLT POLICE POSITIVE (THE "PP") OR THE COLT POLICE POSITIVE SPECIAL (THE "PPS"). I WILL MOSTLY PROVIDE INFO ON THE PP, PPS, THE COLT ARMY SPECIAL, AND THE COLT OFFICIAL POLICE (THE "OP"). THERE WILL ALSO BE REFERENCES TO S&W REVOLVERS AND POST-WAR REVOLVERS. COMMENTS, ADDITIONAL INFO AND/OR QUESTIONS WILL ALL BE WELCOME. FIRST LET ME START WITH SOME INTERESTING NUMBERS (MEASUREMENTS OF VARIOUS REVOLVERS IN HAND):

BY THE NUMBERS LENGTH/WIDTH OF CYLINDERS IN INCHES

1. PRE-WAR PP 32 COLT NEW POLICE CYLINDER: 1.250"/1.400"

2. EARLY POST WAR (SUB K-FRAME) S&W 32 S&W LONG CYLINDER: 1.252"/1.270"

3. POST-WAR S&W MODEL 30 32 S&W LONG: 1.252"/1.305"

4. EARLY POST-WAR COLT DETECTIVE SPECIAL (BASICALLY A PPS BY A DIFFERENT NAME) IN 32 COLT NEW POLICE: 1.570"/1.400"

5. POST-WAR COLT PPS IN 32 COLT NEW POLICE: 1.573"/1.400"

6. PRE-WAR COLT PPS IN 32-20: 1.570"/1.400"

NOTE: THE PPS WAS BASICALLY A PP WITH A LONGER CYLINDER AND FRAME TO ACCOMODATE 32-20 AND 38 SPECIAL CHAMBERINGS.

7. COLT ARMY SPECIAL IN 32-20:  1.540"/1.550"

NOTE: ALL ARMY SPECIALS, REGARDLESS OF CALIBER WERE PRE-WAR.

8. COLT OP IN 32-20: 1.541"/1.550"

NOTE: AS FAR AS I KNOW, ALL OP 32-20 REVOLVERS ARE PRE-WAR.

9. LATE PRE-WAR COLT OFFICER'S MODEL IN 32 POLICE (32 S&W LONG): 1.510"/1.550" (THE KING KONG OF DA 32 REVOLVERS).

NOTE: THE OFFICER'S MODEL WAS BASICALLY A TARGET SIGHTED ARMY SPECIAL/OFFICIAL POLICE AVAILABLE IN 22lr, 38 SPECIAL AND 32, I HAVE NEVER SEEN NOR HEARD OF ONE IN 32-20.

10. PRE-WAR S&W (K-FRAME) 1905 4th CHANGE IN 32-20: 1.560"/1.450"

11. 1920's COLT SAA IN 32-20: 1.600"/1.650"

JUST ME BUT I HAVE ALWAYS FELT THAT I CAN DO MORE AND DO IT BETTER WITH A 32 OR 32-20 COLT DA REVOLVER THAN ITS SMALLER S&W COMPETITORS. I HAVE ALSO FOUND THE COLTS TO BE BETTER BUYS ON GUN BROKER THAN THE SMITHS.

[45MAN]

THE 1905 & 1926 PATENT DATES

THE LAST PATENT DATE ON "FIRST ISSUE" PP and PPS REVOLVER BARRELS, and ARMY SPECIAL REVOLVER BARRELS, IS JULY 4, 1905, SOMETIMES WRITTEN AS JULY 4, 05. THE LAST PATENT DATE ON "SECOND ISSUE" PP and PPS REVOLVER BARRELS, AND OFFICIAL POLICE BARRELS, IS OCT 5, 1926. THE "1905" REVOLVERS HAD A SMOOTH TOP STRAP WITH A U/Vish REAR SIGHT NOTCH, CHECKERED HAMMERS AND CYLINDER LATCHES BUT SMOOTH TRIGGERS. THE "1926" REVOLVERS HAD A SERRATED TOP STRAP WITH A SQUARE REAR SIGHT NOTCH AND ADDED A CHECKERED TRIGGER. THE SERRATED TOP STRAP AND SQUARE REAR SIGHT NOTCH WERE A BIG IMPROVEMENT IN SIGHTING/SHOOTING AND THE CHECKERED TRIGGER WAS A NICE REFINEMENT.

MIX-UPS/MIS-IDENTIFIED REVOLVERS 

I HAVE SEEN ARMY SPECIALS WITH SERIAL NUMBERS CORRESPONDING TO A MANUFACTURE DATE AFTER 1926 AND, IIRC, EVEN INTO THE 1930's AS, I FIGURE, COLT WAS USING UP ITS ARMY SPECIAL INVENTORY OF BARRELS AND FRAMES AND/OR FILLING SPECIAL ORDERS FOR AN ARMY SPECIAL. NOTE: THE ARMY SPECIAL AND THE OP SHARED THE SAME SERIAL NUMBER RANGE WHILE THE PP AND PPS WERE IN A DIFFERENT SERIAL NUMBER RANGE OR RANGES.

ALSO, YOU MIGHT OCCASIONALLY SEE AN OP WITH A SMOOTH HAMMER, CYLINDER LATCH OR TRIGGER, AGAIN, APPARENTLY, PARTS WERE USED AND NOT JUST DISCARDED.

ALL TOO OFTEN YOU WILL SEE ON GUN BROKER AN OP 32-20 FOR SALE THAT IS NOT AN OP REVOLVER BUT INSTEAD IS AN ARMY SPECIAL WITH AN OP 32-20 BARREL. IF THE SERIAL NUMBER PREDATES 1926 YOU KNOW IT ISN'T AN OP AND EVEN IF THE SERIAL NUMBER IS 1926 OR LATER BUT THE TOP STRAP IS SMOOTH AND/OR DOES NOT HAVE A SQUARE REAR SIGHT NOTCH I WOULD AVOID IT. WHILE 32-20 OP REVOLVERS ARE NOT COMMON THERE IS ENUFF OF THEM THAT COME UP FOR SALE THAT YOU CAN HOLD OUT FOR CORRECT SERIAL NUMBER RANGE, AN OP BARREL, SERRATED TOP STRAP, SQUARE REAR SIGHT NOTCH, AND CHECKERED HAMMER, CYLINDER LATCH AND TRIGGER.

ONE MORE COMMENT, SELLERS OFTEN DO NOT KNOW/UNDERSTAND THE COLT NAMES AND YOU MAY OCCASIONALLY SEE A COLT POLICE POSITIVE REFERRED TO AS A COLT OFICIAL POLICE AND/OR SOME CRAZY COMBINATION OF WORDS, SO DO NOT RELY ON THE SELLERS' DESCRIPTIONS.

[bula]

I brought it up here on the forum a time or two, a PP 38Spec here. A hand me down kinda thing. Believe but not sure if it was issued or bought personally for service use. Maybe bought right after the war, WW2. Would you be able to, want to share year and whatever else, if I sent pics and serial number by text ? 4" barrel, fixed sights.  

[bula]

Have to leave house for awhile. Will measure cylinder later to have that info in hand. 

[45MAN]

bula: PM SENT

[45MAN]

MISCELLANEOUS RE THE PP/PPS REVOLVERS 

THE SHORTER FRAMED/SHORTER CYLINDER POLICE POSITIVE ("PP") WAS MADE 1907-1947, WITH THE FIRST ISSUE (1905 PATENT DATE) BEING 1907-1927 AND THE SECOND ISSUE (1926 PATENT DATE) BEING 1928-1947. SIMILAR TO THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE ARMY SPECIAL AND THE OFFICIAL POLICE, THE FIRST ISSUE HAD A SMOOTH TOP STRAP WITH A V/Uish REAR SIGHT NOTCH AND A SMOOTH TRIGGER WHILE THE SECOND ISSUE HAD A SERRATED TOP STRAP, A SQUARE REAR SIGHT NOTCH AND A CHECKERED TRIGGER. THINK OF THE FIRST ISSUE PP AS A MINI ARMY SPECIAL AND THE SECOND ISSUE PP AS A MINI OFFICIAL POLICE. PER WIKIPEDIA, THE PP WAS DISCONTINUED IN 1947.

THE LONGER FRAMED/LONGER CYLINDERED POLICE POSITIVE SPECIAL ("PPS") SHARES A START DATE OF 1907 WITH THE PP, AND ALSO HAS THE FIRST ISSUE 1905 PATENT DATE GUNS AND THE SECOND ISSUE 1926 PATENT DATE GUNS AND THE SAME TOP STRAP AND TRIGGER REFINEMENTS ON THE 1926 PATENT DATE GUNS, HOWEVER, THE PPS CONTINUED TO BE MADE INTO MODERN TIMES, WAY, WAY PAST THE DEMISE OF THE PP IN 1947. THINK OF THE FIRST ISSUE PPS AS A SCALED DOWN ARMY SPECIAL AND THE SECOND ISSUE PPS AS A SCALED DOWN OFFICIAL POLICE.

WITH SPORADIC LOOKING, I HAD NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIND A SECOND ISSUE PPS IN 32-20 UNTIL JUST RECENTLY, SO, "I THINK" THAT JUST LIKE THE OFFICIAL POLICE, ONCE COLT STARTED MAKING THE 1926 PATENT DATE PPS REVOLVERS THE 32-20 BECAME A SCARCE CHAMBERING. MY EDUCATED GUESS IS THAT A POST-WAR 32-20 PPS DOES NOT EXIST.

AT SOME POINT (POSSIBLY PRE-WAR AND/OR BY 1947 AND/OR LATER) COLT DROPPED THE PATENT DATES ON THE PPS BARRELS, CHANGED THE SHAPE OF THE FRONT SIGHT, WENT TO A SMOOTH CYLINDER LATCH AND LATER GROOVED, RATHER THAN CHECKERED, HAMMER AND TRIGGER, BUT RETAINED THE SERRATED TOP STRAP AND SQUARE REAR SIGHT NOTCH. I ONLY HAVE 2 POST-WAR PPS REVOLVERS (1 BEING A 1950 OR SO DETECTIVE SPECIAL) SO I HAVE LIMITED EXEMPLARS/KNOWLEDGE TO DRAW ON BUT THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THE POST-WAR PPS REVOLVERS ARE DIFFERENT.
.

[needsmostuff]

Hey Rey, looking at the measurements it seems like if someone had the urge, they could install the cylinder and barrel off a 32-20 Army Spl. on a prewar Officer Model (38 spl.) and have a pretty cool gun.
Also, how highly do you value a 32-20 PPS as a shooter or do you go straight for the bigger, stronger AS?

[45MAN]

Jul 2, 2024 8:56:18 GMT -5 needsmostuff said:

Hey Rey, looking at the measurements it seems like if someone had the urge, they could install the cylinder and barrel off a 32-20 Army Spl. on a prewar Officer Model (38 spl.) and have a pretty cool gun.
Also, how highly do you value a 32-20 PPS as a shooter or do you go straight for the bigger, stronger AS?

IF I AM REMEMBERING CORRECTLY, 32-20 BARRELS ARE FAR EASIER TO FIND THAN 32-20 CYLINDERS. I HAVE 1 32-20 ARMY SPECIAL LEFT (A VERY NICE 5") AND WILL SEE WHAT ITS CYLINDER LOOKS LIKE ON AN OFFICER'S MODEL 38.

MY ONLY 32-20 PPS IS A LATE FIRST ISSUE AND I AM RELUCTANT TO SHOOT IT WITH MY ARMY SPECIAL/OFFICIAL POLICE LOAD (A 115gr RNFP @ 1,068fps out'a 6" OFFICIAL POLICE) BUT I ALSO TRY NOT TO USE THAT LOAD IN MY 1905 4th CHANGE S&W 32-20's. - 45MAN

[needsmostuff]

Jul 2, 2024 10:24:28 GMT -5 45MAN said:

Jul 2, 2024 8:56:18 GMT -5 needsmostuff said:

Hey Rey, looking at the measurements it seems like if someone had the urge, they could install the cylinder and barrel off a 32-20 Army Spl. on a prewar Officer Model (38 spl.) and have a pretty cool gun.
Also, how highly do you value a 32-20 PPS as a shooter or do you go straight for the bigger, stronger AS?

IF I AM REMEMBERING CORRECTLY, 32-20 BARRELS ARE FAR EASIER TO FIND THAN 32-20 CYLINDERS. I HAVE 1 32-20 ARMY SPECIAL LEFT (A VERY NICE 5") AND WILL SEE WHAT ITS CYLINDER LOOKS LIKE ON AN OFFICER'S MODEL 38.

MY ONLY 32-20 PPS IS A LATE FIRST ISSUE AND I AM RELUCTANT TO SHOOT IT WITH MY ARMY SPECIAL/OFFICIAL POLICE LOAD (A 115gr RNFP @ 1,068fps out'a 6" OFFICIAL POLICE) BUT I ALSO TRY NOT TO USE THAT LOAD IN MY 1905 4th CHANGE S&W 32-20's. - 45MAN

Thanks for the offer of investigating but no need to take guns apart. More of an idle question in case the parts showed up.

Answer on the PPS is kind of what I suspected. I have been watching a decent PPS at a local Pawn shop and the price should be getting right. But I also have 32-20 K frames that I won't load much over 32 long and go straight for the AS or Buckeye if serious 32-20 shooting is on the menu.
So the PPS is a pretty little gun that I probably don't need. Now if it was a PPS target,,,,,,,,,,,,

[needsmostuff]

Ooops , double tap.

[45MAN]

UPDATE ON THE PPS

FOUND SOME INFO IN THE 38th EDITION OF "BLUE BOOK OF GUN VALUES", PAGES 577 & 579, THAT THE PPS FIRST ISSUE (1905 PATENT DATE) WAS 1907-1927, THE SECOND ISSUE (1926 PATENT DATE) WAS 1928-1946, THE THIRD ISSUE WAS 1947-1976, AND A FOURTH ISSUE WAS 1977-1978, AND THAT THE 3rd AND 4th ISSUES WERE ONLY MADE IN 38 SPECIAL.

ALTHOUGH I WON'T SWEAR TO IT, "I THINK" THAT THE PPS HAD ITS OWN SERIAL NUMBER RANGE SEPARATE FROM THE PP SERIAL NUMBER RANGE AND THAT THE DETECTIVE SPECIAL AND THE PPS MAY HAVE SHARED THE SAME SERIAL NUMBER RANGE.

NEXT (HOPEFULLY TODAY 7/3/24) SOME PICTURES.

[45MAN]

PICTURE AND NOTES RE PP & PPS REVOLVERS


link

TOP TO BOTTOM:

1. 6" COLT POLICE POSITIVE SPECIAL ("PPS"") IN 32-20, DATE OF MANUFACTURE ("DOM") OF 1926, A LATE 1905 PATENT DATE/FIRST ISSUE PPS, WITH SMOOTH TOP STRAP, U/Vish REAR SIGHT NOTCH, CHECKERED HAMMER AND CYLINDER LATCH AND SMOOTH TRIGGER.

2. 6" COLT POLICE POSITIVE ("PP") IN 32 POLICE (32 S&W LONG), DOM OF 1929, AN EARLY 1926 PATENT DATE/SECOND ISSUE PP, WITH SERRATED TOP STRAP, SQUARE REAR SIGHT NOTCH AND CHECKERED HAMMER, CYLINDER LATCH AND TRIGGER.

3. THIRD ISSUE 4" COLT PPS IN 32 COLT N.P. (32 S&W LONG), DOM OF 1963, SERRATED TOP STRAP AND SQUARE REAR SIGHT NOTCH, GROOVED HAMMER AND TRIGGER, SMOOTH CYLINDER LATCH AND NO PATENT DATES ON THE BARREL. NOTE THE CHANGE IN THE FRONT SIGHT AND THE CONTOUR OF THE GRIP FRAME FROM THE PPS AND PP SHOWN ABOVE.

4. EARLY THIRD ISSUE COLT DETECTIVE SPECIAL ("DS") IN 32 COLT N.P. (32 S&W LONG), DOM OF 1949, SERRATED TOP STRAP, SQUARE REAR SIGHT NOTCH, CHECKERED HAMMER AND TRIGGER, SMOOTH CYLINER LATCH AND NO PATENT DATES ON THE BARREL. THE DS WAS JUST A SHORT BARREL PPS BY A DIFFERENT NAME. FOR A WHILE AROUND 1950 COLT PUT "COLT WOOD" (PLASTIC GRIPS) ON AT LEAST ITS DETECTIVE SPECIALS, AS SHOWN ON THE ONE PICTURED ABOVE. NOTE THE CHANGE IN THE FRONT SIGHT AND THE CONTOUR OF THE GRIP FRAME FROM THE PPS AND PP SHOWN ABOVE IN No.'s 1 & 2.

NOTE: GRIPS FOR No.'s 3 & 4 INTERCHANGE WITH EACH OTHER BUT WILL NOT FIT No. 1 NOR No. 2.

ALSO NOTE: THE SECOND ISSUE PP (No. 2) HAS A SLIGHTLY LONGER GRIP FRAME THAN THE FIRST ISSUE PPS (No. 1) AND THE GRIPS DO NOT INTERCHANGE. SOMETIMES, WHEN SHOPPING FOR PP OR PPS GRIPS, YOU WILL SEE REFERENCES TO "these fit the longer grip frame" OR "these fit the shorter grip frame".

[AxeHandle]

So... Let's talk about the pitting that seem to be prevalent in the older 32-20 Colt and S&W revolvers. I picked up a pair because I liked them and they were so danged cheap. Bores have intact rifling, but they are nasty with, what I assume is block powder induced, pitting

[45MAN]

axe: I CAN'T SPEAK TO THE BLACKPOWDER PITTING ISSUE. I OWN OR HAVE OWNED AROUND 15 PRE-WAR COLT AND S&W 32-20's AND ONLY 3 HAD COSMETIC CHALLENGES. SOME OF THE OLDER GUNS WERE CARRIED AND USED A LOT IN THE OUTDOORS AND DATE BACK TO WHEN WE WERE A MORE RURAL SOCIETY.

[45MAN]

PP/PPS BARREL MARKINGS, CALIBERS AND THE 32 H&R MAG

1. NOT ALL PPS BARRELS SAY POLICE POSITIVE SPECIAL, SOME JUST SAY POLICE POSITIVE BUT IF IT IS THE LONGER CYLINDER IT IS A PPS.

2. THE 38 SPECIAL AND THE 32-20 WERE NOT AVAILABLE IN THE PP, WHILE THE 32-20, 38 SPECIAL AND SUPPOSEDLY THE 32 NEW POLICE (32 S&W LONG) WERE AVAILABLE IN THE LONGER CYLINDERED FIRST ISSUE AND SECOND ISSUE PPS REVOLVERS. A FIRST OR SECOND ISSUE PPS IN 32 WOULD BE A NEAT FIND. 

3. MY BEST INFORMATION IS THAT COLT HAS NEVER CHAMBERED FOR THE 32 H&R MAG BUT THAT SOME POST-WAR PPS AND DETECTIVE SPECIAL 32 COLT N.P. (32 S&W LONG) HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFULLY PUNCHED OUT TO 32 H&R MAG AND THAT NUMRICH ARMS EVEN OFFERED 32 H&R MAG CYLINDERS (PRESUMABLY PPS/DS RECHAMBERED CYLINDERS) FOR SALE. MY 1963 THIRD ISSUE PPS IN 32 COLT N.P. (32 S&W LONG), PICTURED AND DISCUSSED IN AN EARLIER POST, WOULD BE A GOOD CANDIDATE FOR SUCH A RECHAMBER, BUT THE FIXED SIGHTS ARE JUST NOT SOMETHING I HAVE WANTED TO DEAL WITH NOT KNOWING HOW "OFF" THEY MAY BE.

THIS PRETTY MUCH WRAPS UP MY "NOTES" ON THE PP AND PPS REVOLVERS. NEXT WILL BE ON TO THE PRE-WAR ARMY SPECIAL/OFFICIAL POLICE 32-20 REVOLVERS.