Bile
.30 Stingray
Posts: 244
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Post by Bile on Jun 10, 2010 16:11:00 GMT -5
Bile, You're over thinking the equation. The .45 ACP in it's standard 230gr FMJ ball round is a 100 years of proven combat and anti-personal performance. If you are looking for a self defense load for a semi auto you'll need no more than that basic load but with perhaps a JHP type bullet. You really don't need +P type velocities. Your comment that a single action revolver requires at least one good hand to use but an auto doesn't is in error. All hand guns need at least one functional hand to work. Having arthritis and suffering from gout (medication induced) I've learned what happens when a hand is only partially functional. At that point you need two hands, no question about it. Ever hear of limp wristing? If your hand is only partially functional you might not have the strength to hold your bottom feeder and it stands a real good chance of jamming due to limp wristing. How are you going to shoot the first round, a P90 is DA on the first isn't it) if your hand is injured and you have no strength in the trigger finger? That's where a single or double action revolver trumps the P90 for the first shot. Have you practiced one hand loading of a bottom feeder? It's not as easy as you think. Jeff is right, if you're planning for SD from marauding illegal aliens leave no bullets, empties, foot prints, or tire tracks behind. SSS, or at least S_S. Joe Over thinking is my job. Even if getting it right doesn't always occur. If self-defense against humans was the only consideration I'd simply stick with my Glock 20, and have 16 rounds of 10MM Auto at my disposal. However, some of the areas down south have black bear and big lions, both of which I carry a tag for every year, every where I go, hoping to stumble across one. For that I want just a bit more accuracy than my G20 delivers and I want a bullet that is already wide enough and heavy enough to reach the vitals from any angle. That puts me right back at the 45 ACP with hard flat nosed bullets. You are right about limp wristing an auto, and that is also a consideration that has brought me back to consider the double action a number of times. But a scenario with only one good hand left is one that comes just before killing or dying. Up to that point the reloading ease and speed of a semi-auto is a tad easier and faster than a single-action and may ensure that the one hand only options never comes into play. You do, however - as usual, give me some things to think about. BTW, a buddy of mine (we patrolled together way back when) had to put someone down after taking a load of shotgun pellets in the shoulder and chest. He only had enough fight left to reach behind himself with his only good arm, across his back, draw and fire five times into the perps chest with a revolver to end the fight. If he had to do anything else, like manipulate a hammer, I'm not sure he'd still be walking among us. Other one hand examples come to mind, but this one certainly stuck with me over the years. Finally - so you would suggest I stick with a single-action for this exercise and advise that as the best option? I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you. I truly love single-actions and consider the SAA one of the finest fighting handguns ever made and continue to fight against going back to that option. Thanks Joe.
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Bile
.30 Stingray
Posts: 244
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Post by Bile on Jun 10, 2010 16:16:16 GMT -5
My carry type 45 ACP 1911s get GI ball straight from the original can. Sealed primers and glued in bullets are a plus in my book for a bottom feeder carry gun. Real believer in the 230 grain bullet weight for the 1911 platform. Have some 230 grain Federal hydra-shocks around here somewhere.. Did find a deal on a few thousand 230 grain FMJs from Zero a few years back.. Bought them to work up some loads for service pistol competition with a 1911. I think they still sell them... Thanks axehandle. Do you think the 230 grain GI Ball would penetrate broadside through a black bear? I'm curious, not challenging. I happen to like the GI Ball and would likely carry that round if self-defense against humans were the only issue and I choose a 45 ACP for that application. It has been my experience with other cartridges that the round nosed bullets don't often penetrate as straight, and consequently not as deep, as a flat nosed bullet. But my experience with them are limited.
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edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,107
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Post by edk on Jun 10, 2010 16:22:57 GMT -5
I cast and handload these for my 45: 230gr, maximum nose that will reliably feed (72% meplat). With these full weight 45 cal slugs and their nose I load for reliability and forget about velocity. I don't think the difference between 875 or 925 fps will amount to any real difference in terminal performance.
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Bile
.30 Stingray
Posts: 244
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Post by Bile on Jun 10, 2010 16:41:33 GMT -5
I cast and handload these for my 45: 230gr, maximum nose that will reliably feed (72% meplat). With these full weight 45 cal slugs and their nose I load for reliability and forget about velocity. I don't think the difference between 875 or 925 fps will amount to any real difference in terminal performance. Those are some beautiful bullets. What mold? Can you post a picture of the finished cartridge, and perhaps share your load recipe. Thanks.
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Post by nonpcnrarn on Jun 10, 2010 16:56:55 GMT -5
Try Penn 230 gr truncated cone bullets. They are a copy of the bullet developed by Jeff Cooper and the USAF before the armed forces went to the 9mm. It has a flat nose, feeds well and can be loaded to 900 fps according to the Hogdon manual. data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp The Penn bullet you suggested looks like a real candidate and may very well end up being the bullet. Not having to cast them is a plus. Thanks for the lead. As far as the Buffalo Bore load you mentioned, I'd really like to spend less than a $1.00 a shot for this project. Don't get me wrong, I like Buffalo Bore's cartridges and use quite a bit of them, but would like to spend just a little less for these loads. Buffalo Bore makes a +P load using a fmj version of this bullet. You can pretty much duplicate that load using the Penn bullets. They also load easily into revolvers and leverguns because of the cone shape. I plan on using them in my New Vaqueros and levergun for SASS . Regarding self defense, I doubt the 25 extra grains of weight will make that much difference on the receiving end compared to the standard pressure 45 Colt. And like it has been pointed out, the flat nosed truncated cone bullets track straighter than RN ball ammo in the ACP.
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Post by serialsolver on Jun 10, 2010 16:57:55 GMT -5
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Post by nonpcnrarn on Jun 10, 2010 17:13:55 GMT -5
Bile, Don't sell your Glock short. Beartooth makes a 200 gr hardcast that has a meplat as large or larger than many 45 ACP bullets. It is the meplat not the caliber that creates the wound size. According to the owner of BB, hardcast bullets are not a no-no with Glock barrels. It is the soft cowboy bullets that cause problems (leading) with Glock barrels. To be on the safe side you could still get a replacement barrel for the Glock a lot cheaper than a new handgun. A 10mm 200 gr bullet with a .31" meplat should do a number on 2 legged and 4 legged critters. Edk's bullets have a meplat of .325" (72% of .452) and are heavier but the 10mm will move a 200 gr bullet a lot faster and should penetrate deeper.
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,559
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Post by Fowler on Jun 10, 2010 18:37:53 GMT -5
I am a big believer in 45acp guns, I like 1911 and wheel guns for them but to each their own. I have run a few 250gr WFNGC LBT bullets from a friends mold though my Les Baer with pretty impressive results, Good accuracy to 50 yards and then it fell off but not horribly. They feed 100% reliably, hit hard, and are cheap as again I cast them.
That having been said they are a bit tough on a 1911 or any auto because they are certainly +P loads. My normal load is a 230gr Truncated cone bullet that I cast. I doubt anyone will ever prove what a 250gr WFN at 850fps or a 230gr at 900fps would do that a 230gr Truncated cone wouldn't do at 825fps and be easier on the gun and shooter. If you want a 250gr bullet at 1000fps get a Smith Mountain gun or a 329 in 44 mag or 45 colt and never think about it again. The Redhawk is a great gun but a bit heavy, I would only get one over a Smith if I wanted to run heavies, 300gr+ bullets at 1100fps+ but that is just me.
Nothing wrong with your Glock ether, if you expect a Ruger 45acp auto to give you better accuracy than your Glock I think you will be disappointed. They are fine guns, reliable and all but they are not all that accurate. If you want accurate then a high end 1911s are the way to go (or a Smith revolver) in autos, my Les Baer holds 2-3" groups at 50 yards with good ammo and has never jammed with good ammo (the only failures it has ever had were 200gr SWC that were loaded light on powder and long enough they were hanging in the magazine, cant blame the gun).
I don't feel at all handycapped with a single action, and love the guns enough I certainly shoot them about 80% of the time when I shoot handguns. A 44sp 4 5/8" Flat Top is a pretty tough gun to beat in the field for handiness and pointablity that really matters in a self defense situation. It is going to be your first shot that matters not the tenth, by then the bear or the bad guy will have you or they will be dead.
I personnally carry a Smith Mountain gun in 45 colt with 255gr Keiths at 900fps (because the gun likes the load), one of my Ruger or Freedom Arms single actions (whatever feels right that day) or my Les Baer in the woods when running around. I feel equally prepared with any of them but you should carry the one that makes you feel comfortable. Worrying about 100fps or 25gr of bullet weight is pointless, you need the gun that you KNOW you can hit a bear in the face with, right now, and know it will do the job. Where you hit the problem will be far more important that what you hit it with. Practice with whatever you choose, a lot, get to where it is a natural extension of your hand. And most of all be smart out there, the guy who is most likely to survive a fight with a bad guy or a bear is the one who avoided the fight in the first place...
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Bile
.30 Stingray
Posts: 244
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Post by Bile on Jun 10, 2010 19:11:49 GMT -5
...you should carry the one that makes you feel comfortable. Worrying about 100fps or 25gr of bullet weight is pointless, you need the gun that you KNOW you can hit a bear in the face with, right now, and know it will do the job. Where you hit the problem will be far more important that what you hit it with. Practice with whatever you choose, a lot, get to where it is a natural extension of your hand. And most of all be smart out there, the guy who is most likely to survive a fight with a bad guy or a bear is the one who avoided the fight in the first place... Sound Wisdom. This thread has given me a lot of good information, leads, and advise. All of which are appreciated.
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groo
.327 Meteor
I yet live!!!!
Posts: 855
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Post by groo on Jun 10, 2010 19:52:57 GMT -5
Groo here You have a 10MM Then you have your answer!!!!!!!!!!!!! Use a 200 gr fmj or plated at 1100 to 1200 and your ready to go. The 10mm is one of "Uncle Teds" most used handguns for backup on bow hunts.. I have a DW C-bob in 10 mm and can say I would not feel under gunned on anything up to Black Bear...
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Bile
.30 Stingray
Posts: 244
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Post by Bile on Jun 10, 2010 23:56:41 GMT -5
Groo here You have a 10MM Then you have your answer!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know, I know. I'll carry the 10MM to back up the 45. ;D
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Post by nonpcnrarn on Jun 11, 2010 1:58:56 GMT -5
Groo here You have a 10MM Then you have your answer!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know, I know. I'll carry the 10MM to back up the 45. ;D If you carry 2 guns, you have the fastest reload known. ;D
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edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,107
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Post by edk on Jun 11, 2010 7:11:06 GMT -5
The bullets I posted are called the "BD45" and they are from a group buy mold that has been run a few times over to castboolits.gunloads.com/ . There is a catch regarding them though and this should come as no surprise: they can be fussy to get feeding reliably in your gun but once you find the sweet spot you can achieve flawless function. I'm using a XD-45 and the only playing around I really needed to do was getting just the right OAL - no gun modifications. BD (the handle of the fellow that developed the bullet) has instructions in this regard. They are accurate but something I just noticed is that you are hoping to find a terminally effective 45 ACP load from your Ruger that is more accurate than your Glock 20. That may not be easy. I rely on these when I need 2 & 4 legged defense but I probably would not consider it for hunting (again unless it was some sort of short range scenario). They are accurate enough for they're intended purpose but if "going hunting" with a handgun I would generally only seriously consider a revolver or single shot depending upon the circumstances. The bullet pictures are hijacked from "Cast Boolits" as I do not have any sort of ability to take and upload photos at the moment hence no pics of loaded rounds. You could go there and read & read on this bullet if you are interested so I'm not going to get too long here concerning it - just trying to "introduce you two" so to speak. Really Fowler's post was excellent and while I'm writing you out of a courtesy of reply concerning the BD45 I'll second his post as a pretty comprehensive summary of what you need to be thinking about.
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Bile
.30 Stingray
Posts: 244
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Post by Bile on Jun 11, 2010 10:53:25 GMT -5
Thanks edk.
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Post by dougader on Jun 11, 2010 21:37:32 GMT -5
Just in case you haven't followed the link posted by serialsolver, here's the Beartooth 265 grain WFNGC. I shoot it from 900 fps up to 1144 fps (45 Super at that point). Oh, BTW, regarding the DT load with the FMJFP bullet, last time I shot them over the chrony they averaged 928 fps for 12 rounds. Not bad, but certainly not the advertised 1,010 fps either.
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