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Post by bigbrowndog on Mar 23, 2024 13:51:35 GMT -5
I recall reading a warning about lilgun in revolvers and I was given a bunch of 357max ammo by a trustworthy friend, however I’m still planning on pulling the ammo and separating the components. I believe he was loading for a TC Contender and I’m having trouble even finding load data for lil gun in a 357max. His data card reads 20gr. with a 180xtp, and a 200ftx, does anyone know where I can find data for lil gun. I’m just curious what this load might be, I’m not contemplating shooting it in my revolver, but if the powder is suitable for this or other guns I’m keeping it for later use, elsewhere. Thanks in advance for any help.
Trapr
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Post by bigbore5 on Mar 23, 2024 14:00:01 GMT -5
Lil gun does have a bad rap for throat erosion. But it's also the powder in Buffalo Bore Heavy Outdoorsman loads. I really don't think it would be as big a deal used in moderation.
It will also heat a barrel up quickly, so I personally give it a little time between cylinders. For the most part, I really don't shoot it much in my revolvers. I mainly reserve what I have left of it for the Contender and Encore.
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Post by contender on Mar 23, 2024 20:15:33 GMT -5
From all I've seen & heard about Lil'gun powder,, I prefer to not give it a chance to cause me problems. It may be ok in general in a Contender,, but with the .357 Maxi already having a rep of top strap flame cutting,, I'd avoid any revolver shooting for sure.
Besides,, in .357 Maxi,, I've played with several powders,, & IMR 4227 seems to always prove to be the best all around.
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mattyb
.240 Incinerator
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Post by mattyb on Mar 23, 2024 22:22:05 GMT -5
I started loading a pretty hefty dose of Lil Gun under a 180XTP for my .357 Blackhawk and Rossi 92 when H110 became scarce around here. I’ve been through 2 pounds of it so far. I can’t see any damage done in my guns. I don’t know if that’s due to the longer cylinder in a RBH or if the word about this powder is….exaggerated, or both. It is entirely possible that I’m simply too ignorant to know what the erosion would look like.
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 23, 2024 22:36:05 GMT -5
Trapr.... I would not try Hodgdon Lil Gun in a revolver. Especially a Maximum. I suspect, but have no verification, that this propellant is made with a dose of Nitroglycerine above average for a double base powder. The Ruger top strap ain’t going to be the problem. The threat is accelerated erosion of BARREL FACE and FORCING CONE.
David Bradshaw
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 24, 2024 7:24:52 GMT -5
”...with the .357 Maxi already having a rep of top strap flame cutting...." ***** Tyrone.... Bill Ruger, Jr., put his finger on the "top strap cutting" before the the .357 Maximum reached production. During our shooting of Remington experimental .357 Maximum, Bill, Jr., observed noticed the line of erosion across the top strap, directly above the barrel/cylinder gap SELF-ARRESTED. Bill mentioned “flame hardening” and potential carbonizing of the steel as arresting the erosion, even as BARREL FACE erosion continued. Jump ahead four decades to meeting Ronnie Wells: I put the question to Ronnie. Ronnie immediately described carbon shielding, and advised no attempt should be made to remove it. Neither Bill, Jr., nor I scrubbed the top strap of prototype Maximums. David Bradshaw |
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Post by kevshell on Mar 24, 2024 7:35:37 GMT -5
There is some limited load data for the 357 maximum on the MGM barrel website. Of course everything there is for a single shot not a revolver. They don't care about forcing cones and barrel cylinder gaps. They are getting some pretty good numbers with their loads.
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Post by contender on Mar 24, 2024 9:13:18 GMT -5
David,, I'm well aware of the top strap flame cutting issues & all. I was just pointing out the fact many folks feel it's a "negative" factor. I may have not used the right description etc. And yes,, I have zero worries about my Maxi's & top strap cutting due to the exact info you mentioned.
But from some of the other stuff I've been seeing, ( Some USPSA shooters) & all,, Lil'gun seems to not be a truly good choice for many various applications. In my opinion,, I'd look for other uses than in a .357 Maxi or any revolver. The barrel face & forcing cone erosion and in a few semi's chamber erosion seems to be a potential issue. I tend to be more cautious about such things. I'm not saying that powder doesn't have some good applications,, just apparently it has a narrower window of use.
Just my humble opinion.
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 24, 2024 10:08:16 GMT -5
Tyrone.... Bob Baker at Freedom Arms cautioned against the erosive effect of Lil Gun in their .357 Mag. Bob also suspects a higher percentage of nitro in this double base powder. And, Singleaction’s Lee Martin quit Lil Gun upon experiencing its immediate heat effect on a revolver.
David Bradshaw
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Post by bigbrowndog on Mar 24, 2024 10:19:48 GMT -5
There is some limited load data for the 357 maximum on the MGM barrel website. Of course everything there is for a single shot not a revolver. They don't care about forcing cones and barrel cylinder gaps. They are getting some pretty good numbers with their loads. I believe that was the source of his load data, as he was looking for a straight walled case for use on deer in Minn. Today will be a separation of components day!!! Trapr |
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,749
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Post by jeffh on Mar 24, 2024 10:31:46 GMT -5
I used some Lil'Gun in a Rossi 92, 357 Mag. I have not used it in a revolver or single-shot, because I gave away a nearly full one-pound can after shooting maybe 50 rounds through the lever.
The barrel got so hot on the rifle that you could not touch it. That was a major inconvenience for a rifle of this sort - a repeater, and a danged quick and handy one at that. I did not just blast away with this gun, but I did shoot it a lot faster than my single shots and it was intended as a personal defense carbine as well as a means to reduce the over-population of 'coons, which were like a plague here for a few year. Three to five quick shots on a midnight raid of a band of marauding 'coons was not uncommon.
The barrel may or may not have ever suffered any ill-effects from the barrel heating up to that point, but it was very inconvenient for that carbine.
I later learned that very soft SWCs at very low velocities, which were also very quiet, were much more effective on the 'coons anyway, so I didn't miss the Lil'Gun when it was gone.
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Post by RDW on Mar 24, 2024 10:36:33 GMT -5
”...with the .357 Maxi already having a rep of top strap flame cutting...." ***** Tyrone.... Bill Ruger, Jr., put his finger on the "top strap cutting" before the the .357 Maximum reached production. During our shooting of Remington experimental .357 Maximum, Bill, Jr., observed noticed the line of erosion across the top strap, directly above the barrel/cylinder gap, set arrested. Bill mentioned “flame hardening” and potential carbonizing of the steel as arresting the erosion, even as BARREL FACE erosion continued. Just ahead four decades, to meeting Ronnie Wells, I put the question to Ronnie. Ronnie immediately described carbon shielding, and advised no attempt should be made to remove it. Neither Bill, Jr., nor I scrubbed the top strap of prototype Maximums. David Bradshaw Lil Gun is a double base with more than a smidge of extra Nitro Boogie (C₃H₅N₃O₉) and this particular powders expansion rate is outstanding, But it is Hot! There are many uses for such a powder but the already controversial and seemingly plagued 357 max is not one of them when used in a revolver. Its mean as jelly beans in a TC though. Now as for the flame cutting, Hell H110 , W296 , They will all doit, ( Flame Cut and erode Barrels) if you dont have a heavy enough Bullet to let this type of powder do its job as intended. As far as the flame cutting trough goes it will build up a layer of Carbon that has a similar matrix to what the several type of space Rentry tiles use. There are several type and developments as we got more familiar with how to manufacture them. The 3 main TPS types ( Thermal Protection Systems) for the Space shuttle were, (HRSI) which is High-temperature reusable surface insulation, (RCG) Reaction Cured Glasses, A high Grade silica matrix made up of tetraboron silicide and borosilicate that are bound to gether by process using a fetter flame and pure carbon. The silicates fuse during the process and are used for trailing edges of wings , elevators and stabilisers. Good for about 3000 F. They were later replaced by a new type FRCI, Fibrous Refractory Composite Insulation Tiles. Then (TUFI) which was toughened with more carbon substrates. At the end they had gone pretty much to RCC which was Reinforced Carbon/ Carbon tiles that were a laminated version of the earlier tiles. Each part of the process using various types of alchols like furfural that were pyrolised to convert the Phenolic resins to Pure carbon in a vacuum chamber. All of these processes developed over a 3 decade time period yeild one similar aspect. LOTS OF CARBON! I have been pushing envelopes on loads for decades now and have always had a love for the 1980s Maximum. Clean the gun. Do not remove the carbon build up from the small and limited depth of the groove which i have found on my own to never exceed .020 to .025 Thousandths and it will never go any deeper. It acts like a rentry tile. R |
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Post by bigbrowndog on Mar 24, 2024 10:53:53 GMT -5
Very interesting info, waaay over my head, but interesting. The level of knowledge on this forum expands every day. Thanks for the info everybody, I knew I’d read “lil gun bad” for revolvers somewhere on here.
BTW, RGW we need to restart that conversation about a new build and barrel.
Trapr
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Post by RDW on Mar 24, 2024 11:40:02 GMT -5
Very interesting info, waaay over my head, but interesting. The level of knowledge on this forum expands every day. Thanks for the info everybody, I knew I’d read “lil gun bad” for revolvers somewhere on here. BTW, RGW we need to restart that conversation about a new build and barrel. Trapr Well you Know, There are plenty of success stories with Lil gun and revolvers. It has its place. Its just that with all the bad press and the flames of discontent with the 357 Maximum, i choose to find alternatives that i and everyone else have proven to work well with that cartridge. 357 max is such a great cartridge, i just want it to work to its full potential without all the hype and problems that i beleive were drummed up for other reasons than what in reallity were not an actuall reality! And you have my number sir! Love to hear from you. R PS: I have gotten several 357 Magnum standard blackhawks in here that had terrible flame cutting issues. And we all Know why. |
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Post by bigbore5 on Mar 24, 2024 13:27:04 GMT -5
I've got an old model with most of the rifling worn out of the barrel but no real visible top strap cutting. Many thousands of rounds of Unique or Universal and the RCBS 38-150kt went down the barrel in the past 60 years.
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