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Post by LeverGunner on Feb 23, 2024 23:14:32 GMT -5
Very interesting discussion. Thank you all for sharing. I've not had many dealings with either the 38 WCF or the 44 WCF. I'd love to have an original rifle in either chambering.
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Post by Encore64 on Feb 24, 2024 5:33:41 GMT -5
Lee Precision and Starline Brass have changed the face of these two fine cartridges.
Lee offers the Factory Crimp Die which eliminates the possibility of crumpled cases during crimping. A real and often experienced problem during loading.
Bore diameter has varied thru the years with the 44-40. I've researched this for years and no two resources agree to any extent.
Today, most builders have settled on .429" Bore Stock. Same as the 44 Special and Magnum.
This is where Starline comes to the rescue. Not only is it strong, but it's well thought out.
When .429" Bore Stock is used, cast bullet shooters generally turn to .430" bullets.
Then comes the problem. Since many settled on .427" bullets as standard in the 44-40, reamers were cut accordingly.
So, when bullets of .430" were seated, ammo wouldn't chamber due to neck diameter.
Starline solved this by using a stronger alloy and reducing neck wall thickness to .0065" from the typical .008". This gave the extra .003" clearance to use .430" bullets.
I did replace the .425" Expander in my Lee Powder Thru Die with a .427" from a 44 Mag Die. It still provides good neck tension, but eases seating efforts.
Hope this helps anyone interested in getting into these fine old cartridges...
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 24, 2024 11:09:30 GMT -5
Lee Precision and Starline Brass have changed the face of these two fine cartridges. Lee offers the Factory Crimp Die which eliminates the possibility of crumpled cases during crimping. A real and often experienced problem during loading. Bore diameter has varied thru the years with the 44-40. I've researched this for years and no two resources agree to any extent. Today, most builders have settled on .429" Bore Stock. Same as the 44 Special and Magnum. This is where Starline comes to the rescue. Not only is it strong, but it's well thought out. When .429" Bore Stock is used, cast bullet shooters generally turn to .430" bullets. Then comes the problem. Since many settled on .427" bullets as standard in the 44-40, reamers were cut accordingly. So, when bullets of .430" were seated, ammo wouldn't chamber due to neck diameter. Starline solved this by using a stronger alloy and reducing neck wall thickness to .0065" from the typical .008". This gave the extra .003" clearance to use .430" bullets. I did replace the .425" Expander in my Lee Powder Thru Die with a .427" from a 44 Mag Die. It still provides good neck tension, but eases seating efforts. Hope this helps anyone interested in getting into these fine old cartridges... Encore, you've been luck in your endeavors read this from the CBA forum and it's a new: A mate and I sitting together at an auction last year spotted a matched pair of Uberti Cattlemen pistols in 44-40 on a table. We both shoot the calibre in rifles and reload for those, Rossi Puma 92s. Long story short, we bought one each at a good price. The handles had been badly customized but the pistols clearly had had little use. Estate auction. His he can reload for and chamber exactly as he does for his rifle, just a different charge, same bullet. With mine the same round will not seat fully in the chamber but binds down by the case mouth. Cylinder won't turn past halfway where the "boltface" if that makes sense, begins, a sharp little outset that continues up to the firing pin area. The rim jams there. We both had Lee dies. Brand new Starline brass seats properly. Anything crimped with a Lee FCD will not chamber in mine but will in his. The three little ridges the Lee collets produce are enough to prevent full seating. Out with the FCD! I was loading in my Lee 5 hole turret. He was loading in his Dillon 550B. So I bought a new set of Hornady Cowboy dies and set them up in in my 550B. After crushing a couple of cases on the crimp stage I finally got to where 8 out of 10 rounds will chamber- just! I've carefully trimmed to length and while I was using a little drill mounted Lee gauge and cutter, I moved to taking the trouble of setting up on my Lyman Universal. Made no difference. Also tried seating bullets a tad deeper..again no difference. I'm using a copper washed 200 grn RN from frontier, pretty much identical to a Berrys. Unlike the cast available to me they are very uniform factory sized. My thought is the cylinder chambers needs polishing and or reaming. Comments, suggestions sought. Biggest difficulty will be finding someone competent to do the job properly. Cheers. John from New Zealand Here's the link, some interesting replies and maybe a bullet you may be interested in, but I doubt it. forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/uberti-cattleman-tight-cylinder-prob/ |
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Post by LeverGunner on Feb 24, 2024 12:03:24 GMT -5
Lee Precision and Starline Brass have changed the face of these two fine cartridges. Lee offers the Factory Crimp Die which eliminates the possibility of crumpled cases during crimping. A real and often experienced problem during loading. Bore diameter has varied thru the years with the 44-40. I've researched this for years and no two resources agree to any extent. Today, most builders have settled on .429" Bore Stock. Same as the 44 Special and Magnum. This is where Starline comes to the rescue. Not only is it strong, but it's well thought out. When .429" Bore Stock is used, cast bullet shooters generally turn to .430" bullets. Then comes the problem. Since many settled on .427" bullets as standard in the 44-40, reamers were cut accordingly. So, when bullets of .430" were seated, ammo wouldn't chamber due to neck diameter. Starline solved this by using a stronger alloy and reducing neck wall thickness to .0065" from the typical .008". This gave the extra .003" clearance to use .430" bullets. I did replace the .425" Expander in my Lee Powder Thru Die with a .427" from a 44 Mag Die. It still provides good neck tension, but eases seating efforts. Hope this helps anyone interested in getting into these fine old cartridges... Encore, you've been luck in your endeavors read this from the CBA forum and it's a new: A mate and I sitting together at an auction last year spotted a matched pair of Uberti Cattlemen pistols in 44-40 on a table. We both shoot the calibre in rifles and reload for those, Rossi Puma 92s. Long story short, we bought one each at a good price. The handles had been badly customized but the pistols clearly had had little use. Estate auction. His he can reload for and chamber exactly as he does for his rifle, just a different charge, same bullet. With mine the same round will not seat fully in the chamber but binds down by the case mouth. Cylinder won't turn past halfway where the "boltface" if that makes sense, begins, a sharp little outset that continues up to the firing pin area. The rim jams there. We both had Lee dies. Brand new Starline brass seats properly. Anything crimped with a Lee FCD will not chamber in mine but will in his. The three little ridges the Lee collets produce are enough to prevent full seating. Out with the FCD! I was loading in my Lee 5 hole turret. He was loading in his Dillon 550B. So I bought a new set of Hornady Cowboy dies and set them up in in my 550B. After crushing a couple of cases on the crimp stage I finally got to where 8 out of 10 rounds will chamber- just! I've carefully trimmed to length and while I was using a little drill mounted Lee gauge and cutter, I moved to taking the trouble of setting up on my Lyman Universal. Made no difference. Also tried seating bullets a tad deeper..again no difference. I'm using a copper washed 200 grn RN from frontier, pretty much identical to a Berrys. Unlike the cast available to me they are very uniform factory sized. My thought is the cylinder chambers needs polishing and or reaming. Comments, suggestions sought. Biggest difficulty will be finding someone competent to do the job properly. Cheers. John from New Zealand Here's the link, some interesting replies and maybe a bullet you may be interested in, but I doubt it. forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/uberti-cattleman-tight-cylinder-prob/That's intersting. That person didn't mention the most obvious test - whether or not his friends cartridges would fit in his gun. |
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Post by LeverGunner on Feb 24, 2024 12:04:34 GMT -5
Lee Precision and Starline Brass have changed the face of these two fine cartridges. Lee offers the Factory Crimp Die which eliminates the possibility of crumpled cases during crimping. A real and often experienced problem during loading. Bore diameter has varied thru the years with the 44-40. I've researched this for years and no two resources agree to any extent. Today, most builders have settled on .429" Bore Stock. Same as the 44 Special and Magnum. This is where Starline comes to the rescue. Not only is it strong, but it's well thought out. When .429" Bore Stock is used, cast bullet shooters generally turn to .430" bullets. Then comes the problem. Since many settled on .427" bullets as standard in the 44-40, reamers were cut accordingly. So, when bullets of .430" were seated, ammo wouldn't chamber due to neck diameter. Starline solved this by using a stronger alloy and reducing neck wall thickness to .0065" from the typical .008". This gave the extra .003" clearance to use .430" bullets. I did replace the .425" Expander in my Lee Powder Thru Die with a .427" from a 44 Mag Die. It still provides good neck tension, but eases seating efforts. Hope this helps anyone interested in getting into these fine old cartridges... Thank you for sharing those tips. |
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 24, 2024 12:08:00 GMT -5
There appears to be some differences in chambers for these two cartridges between manufacturers. There are also differences between the brands of brass. I haven't seen anyone mention a taper crimp or profile crimper.
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Post by cas on Feb 24, 2024 12:23:39 GMT -5
The .44-40 was the first handgun / cartridge I ever wanted. I had a .22 , had been shooting .38/357 and .45 ACP for a while, but reading about the old nearly forgotten .44-40, I decided it was worth saving and I wanted one. Useable and capable as it was, but in a strong modern firearm it had great potential with more case capacity than the 44 Mag. I sent a couple bucks for an EMF catalog to shop for SAA clones and decided which one I wanted. Of course I was in the 6th or 7th grade at the time, so that purchase didn't happen.  Which is why it just struck me just now as so strange that I've never owned one. Had a couple .44 Specials, a few 44 Mags, a few .45 Colts, even revolvers and rifles in .38-40, but no .44-40! What the heck? |
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 24, 2024 12:38:28 GMT -5
The .44-40 was the first handgun / cartridge I ever wanted. I had a .22 , had been shooting .38/357 and .45 ACP for a while, but reading about the old nearly forgotten .44-40, I decided it was worth saving and I wanted one. Useable and capable as it was, but in a strong modern firearm it had great potential with more case capacity than the 44 Mag. I sent a couple bucks for an EMF catalog to shop for SAA clones and decided which one I wanted. Of course I was in the 6th or 7th grade at the time, so that purchase didn't happen. Which is why it just struck me just now as so strange that I've never owned one. Had a couple .44 Specials, a few 44 Mags, a few .45 Colts, even revolvers and rifles in .38-40, but no .44-40! What the heck? Cas get one now!!......or maybe a cylinder for your 44 mag? |
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Post by patrick1948 on Feb 24, 2024 20:09:10 GMT -5
38/40 was introduced to help boost declining sales of product Just a marketing scheme as is done today.
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Post by Encore64 on Feb 24, 2024 20:36:26 GMT -5
38/40 was introduced to help boost declining sales of product Just a marketing scheme as is done today. Exactly what I said. Still goes on today. It's never about better or needs, it's about sales. Still a great cartridge. One of my personal favorites. Still about sales... |
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 24, 2024 22:30:21 GMT -5
38/40 was introduced to help boost declining sales of product Just a marketing scheme as is done today. Exactly what I said. Still goes on today. It's never about better or needs, it's about sales. Still a great cartridge. One of my personal favorites. Still about sales... Every gun and caliber is about sales=MONEY! Ever know of a firearm company that gives their firearmes away? |
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Post by LeverGunner on Feb 24, 2024 22:36:01 GMT -5
For some reason, I've got a desire for a 38 WCF. I've not owned either, so... not sure why that desire is there, but something about it intrigues me.
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COR
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,529
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Post by COR on Feb 26, 2024 19:48:36 GMT -5
Elmer Keith disliked the 38 WCF … do I need more than that fact to settle this debate?
(I own one regardless)
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sharps4590
.30 Stingray
I'm a Christian first, husband and father next then a patriotic, veteran, firearms aficionado.
Posts: 361
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Post by sharps4590 on Feb 26, 2024 20:45:46 GMT -5
Something about not penetrating the skull of a bull elk that was trying to kill him? Cracking the rear of the barrel because he was loading too heavy a bullet over too much powder? Was that a 40-82 WCF bullet with the rear band cut off? That's what I want to recall. Nahhh...Elmer wouldn't do that.
He didn't have a very high opinion of the 44-40 either, did he? I want to remember he didn't like the case. He didn't like tapered/bottlenecked/slope shouldered cases in revolvers. He wasn't shy about declaring the 44 Spl. the best of them all and it is good.
Good ol' Elmer, there's a lot of him and Skeeter on my bookshelves. All I have ever done with a revolver is prove about everything Elmer said.
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Post by bushog on Feb 26, 2024 21:07:37 GMT -5
Elmer Keith disliked the 38 WCF … do I need more than that fact to settle this debate? (I own one regardless) He was old and grouchy too…. |
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