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Post by contender on Jan 31, 2024 10:50:55 GMT -5
good point marlin35.
But you fail to realize that here in America,, it's all about the almighty dollar. Unless there is a potential for huge profits,, companies prefer to "outsource" the products.
And remember,, a CZ company now owns 3 of the 4 primer makers here. To quote Yoda; "Screwed we are!"
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Post by marlin35 on Jan 31, 2024 11:15:32 GMT -5
good point marlin35. But you fail to realize that here in America,, it's all about the almighty dollar. Unless there is a potential for huge profits,, companies prefer to "outsource" the products. And remember,, a CZ company now owns 3 of the 4 primer makers here. To quote Yoda; "Screwed we are!" That’s what I don’t understand, is that the almighty dollar would say, you can make all the money there is to make with nitrocellulose if you produce it here. With all of the military contracts, and civilian market, and China and Russia saying no more, then the market is wide open for production. You would think the incentive would be there for the government, since we supply so much to other countries by way of manufactured munitions. |
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Odin
.375 Atomic
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Post by Odin on Jan 31, 2024 12:11:58 GMT -5
Okay so after some google foo, this is what I understand. Nitrocellulose is made by using a mixture of nitric and sulfuric acid to nitrate cellulose polymers. Cellulose is present in all plant material, with higher contents in woody and fibrous plants. Think wood pulp or cotton. So, this isn’t the product of some geographically available mineral deposits or a byproduct of environmentally damaging production. The process reads as being quite simple (relative to what the US is capable of manufacturing). It is much more simple than say lithium mining or pesticide chemical manufacturing. I gather that there is no more reason to depending on China or Russia for nitrocellulose than there is depending on the Middle East for oil. The creation of nitrocellulose produces an astronomical volume of volatile organic compounds as a byproduct. Environmentally and economically new domestic production is a non-starter in the US. |
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Odin
.375 Atomic
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Post by Odin on Jan 31, 2024 12:24:24 GMT -5
good point marlin35. But you fail to realize that here in America,, it's all about the almighty dollar. Unless there is a potential for huge profits,, companies prefer to "outsource" the products. And remember,, a CZ company now owns 3 of the 4 primer makers here. To quote Yoda; "Screwed we are!" That’s what I don’t understand, is that the almighty dollar would say, you can make all the money there is to make with nitrocellulose if you produce it here. With all of the military contracts, and civilian market, and China and Russia saying no more, then the market is wide open for production. You would think the incentive would be there for the government, since we supply so much to other countries by way of manufactured munitions. As a nation we're not having an issue producing munitions. And as a percentage, the civilian market is negligible, almost laughable. Our nation's gun culture was born of military surplus and will always play second fiddle to the military. This, regardless of how many black guns and how much ball ammo folks stockpile in their basements. |
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Post by marlin35 on Jan 31, 2024 12:28:41 GMT -5
That’s what I don’t understand, is that the almighty dollar would say, you can make all the money there is to make with nitrocellulose if you produce it here. With all of the military contracts, and civilian market, and China and Russia saying no more, then the market is wide open for production. You would think the incentive would be there for the government, since we supply so much to other countries by way of manufactured munitions. As a nation we're not having an issue producing munitions. And as a percentage, the civilian market is negligible, almost laughable. Our nation's gun culture was born of military surplus and will always play second fiddle to the military. This, regardless of how many black guns and how much ball ammo folks stockpile in their basements. Respectfully, while I agree with your premise, that civilians are a negligible share of the munitions market, I disagree that our nation’s gun culture was born of military surplus. Our military was born of the citizen’s gun culture, and military surplus likely didn’t even exist until the aftermath of the civil war. A moot point, but one I felt needed clarification. But yes, modern gun culture revolves around the military and police. |
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Post by dougader on Jan 31, 2024 14:38:06 GMT -5
Yet under the current administration we are dependent on middle eastern oil, we don't manufacture our own materials necessary for small arms ammunition and we don't smelt our own lead.
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Post by contender on Jan 31, 2024 21:58:19 GMT -5
"Environmentally and economically new domestic production is a non-starter in the US."
The main reason for this is OSHA!!! Tree huggers have also pushed so much for a "green world" to where almost any manufacturing company has to do a complete circus dance, just to try & comply with all the various regs that have been passed.
But you can rest assured,, if we (America) were to get into a serious war,, the government would be clamoring for US production of necessary munitions.
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Post by marlin35 on Jan 31, 2024 22:55:57 GMT -5
"Environmentally and economically new domestic production is a non-starter in the US." The main reason for this is OSHA!!! Tree huggers have also pushed so much for a "green world" to where almost any manufacturing company has to do a complete circus dance, just to try & comply with all the various regs that have been passed. But you can rest assured,, if we (America) were to get into a serious war,, the government would be clamoring for US production of necessary munitions. Yes, absolutely. For the sake of forum rules, I won’t get on my soapbox. But you are correct. |
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Odin
.375 Atomic
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Post by Odin on Feb 1, 2024 8:00:16 GMT -5
The main reason for this is OSHA!!! Actually, it's the EPA and the individual state regulatory agencies, but I get your point. I work in Industry, specifically in Environmental Health and Safety. Most folks are truly ignorant about what we're doing. As much as the state and national agencies are a pain in my...side, we should be very, very thankful that they exist and that they are as stringent as they are... Goodness me, I can't believe I just typed that. What a pain in my ass. But what's the alternative? The sorta-kinda-free-for-all people seem to desire? Sounds good, but remember what Larry Niven said - Mother Nature doesn't care if you're having fun! |
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Post by contender on Feb 1, 2024 8:57:33 GMT -5
I fully agree with both of y'all.
Some regulation is a good necessity. But when you make it where a company can't even start building a product due to the huge amount of money, paperwork, lawyers, etc,, American ingenuity gets dampened.
I often look at the way this Country jumped in and worked together for WWII. We built marvelous machines in a VERY short timeframe for the war effort, and while a lot of them had little issues & could have been improved a bit, many were fearsome machines.
And yes,, lots of stuff we used to use as materials,, or how things were built w/o regards to environmental considerations,, or public health etc, have changed for the better/safer. But just like many things,, too much can be detrimental.
And I do hope everyone here understands my comments are not meant to be political,, (they are not,) but more about history & how we've changed over the last century.
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