Plated bullet issue

[wheat]

I've been reloading my 45acp with plated bullets.  On several occasions, the bullets seem to wrinkle while seating.  Switching to regular FMJ bullets with everything else the same has no problems.  Even loading powder coated cast bullets has no problems.  There are no burrs on the mouths.  My cases are not uniform in length. Is that a bigger issue with using the plated bullets?  Trimming those stubby cases are a hassle.  Anyway, what are the thoughts of the experts?  

[bigbore5]

Are the plated bullets the same length as the others?

[cmillard]

Are the case mouthes not being belled enough?

[bradshaw]

Jan 25, 2024 23:45:20 GMT -5 wheat said:

I've been reloading my 45acp with plated bullets.  On several occasions, the bullets seem to wrinkle while seating.  Switching to regular FMJ bullets with everything else the same has no problems.  Even loading powder coated cast bullets has no problems.  There are no burrs on the mouths.  My cases are not uniform in length. Is that a bigger issue with using the plated bullets?  Trimming those stubby cases are a hassle.  Anyway, what are the thoughts of the experts?  

*****

Speer pioneered the ELECTROPLATED BULLET. At one of the big trade shows, S.H.O.T. or NRA, Dave Andrews of Speer/CCI pulls me aside, reaches in his pocket, then drops in my hand two revolver bullets, a .357 and a .44, completely encased in copper, or copper jacket alloy. Andrews says he has a bunch to send send me, wants my impression.

Once I had the chance to wring em out, through a couple of Rugers and Dan Wessons, I reported back: the .44 240 TMJ (Total Metal Jacket) lacked silhouette accuracy. “We’ve been working on that,” said Andrews. “The deposit gets heavier on corners and features. Uniformity of deposit has been a challenge. Now we’ve just about got it down.” Dave sent the refined editions:.44 240 TMJ; .357 180 and 200 TMJ. For the Dan Wesson Arms Model 40 .357 Maximum, I narrowed my focus to the 200 grain TMJ, where in an IHMSA match at Precision Valley, Vermont the new Speer bullet bumped up my Revolver Aggregate Record. TMJ .44 240 and .357 180 & 200 were configured to match RCBS molds for silhouette bullets.

According to Dave Andrews, the TMJ concept was driven by requests to reduce or eliminate lead exposure, especially on indoor ranges. Privious attempts included, briefly, Nyclad ammo made at the S&W ammo plant in Ohio. Federal Cartridge bought the S&W ammo subsidiary, but determined it an unsafe operation and closed it down. In short, Federal ended up with the Nyclad patent. Nobody expected Nyclad to outshoot good jacketed bullets, tournament performance wasn’t its objective

Meanwhile, Speer enjoyed big sales of TMJ ball ammunition. Speer then experimented with its TMJ ball configuration by punching a hollow point. The punch deposited a tiny bit of jacket at the bottom of the hollow point, whereupon someone at Speer pronounced it the GOLD DOT. Thus born, the Speer Dold Dot Hollow Point.

One or more other outfits jumped into the electroplating scheme----yielding, from my minimal shooting, slipshod accuracy. I have heard of no other electroplated bullet which equals the quality of Speer. I consider the early imitations gray market bullets, with thin, unfused jackets prone to tear.
David Bradshaw

[wendigo]

Since the inconsistent case length correlates to less bell on the shorter cases, yes, it's a case flaring issue. About 20 years ago I tried 500 each 45/200 and 44/240 Rainier "Leadsafe" plated bullets and found that they did require more flare to avoid the wrinkles and jacket tears. The 44 bullets weren't exactly terrible with regard to accuracy, but I recall that the 45's were.

[revolvercranker]

Mr Bradshaw I'm going to tell you that the plated bullet industry have come a longs way from what you posted. There are even plated rifle bullet double plated and the copper coating on them is really thick as I bought some of the rifle bullets in .375 caliber. I sectioned one of them and the copper is dang near 1/64 inch think or thicker. Give you an idea of how well they are plated I've sized them down to .368 and have been shooting them in my Husky 9.3x57. I've even made a swage die and nose punch to swage those sized down bullet to a different nose configuration. Speer isn't the only company that can make good copper plated bullets.

Now to address the OP's question he need to have a very slight chamber of the case mouth inner edge to take away that sharp corner and BELL the case mouth slighty.

I will tell you this, plated bullets, especially the heavy double plated bullets will copper your bore! Barnes had both an accuracy problem and fouling problem in their early days. My industry friend is the one that solved the accuracy problem for them.

One more note, another freind Rockwelled powder coat after curing it and said it was 25. The stuff is dang hard after heat curing it.

[revolvercranker]

Mr Bradshaw I hate to disagree with you, but please correct where and if I am wrong. Read this from Speer:

www.speer.com/speer-stories/the-carry-gun-story.html

According to that the original gold dot was a lead core bonded to a plated jacket. The Gold Dots I've bought and loaded years ago appeared to be jacketed bullets.

[revolvercranker]

Mr Bradshaw. I'm not picking on you I'm trying to learn something. Since I last posted to you I done some research with my in the industry friend and I know believe you to be correct on the Gold Dot bullet is/was a plated bullet. The difference is that it has a plated jacketed. I queiried this thinking it's an extruded guilding metal jacke, which it is NOT, it's copper plated jacket and the jack is another type of metal. Altogther this plated jacket is indeed as thin as just plain copper plating, but it's much stronger and harder.

When Mr Andrews from Speer gave you those bullets he passed away a few years later after that didn't he.

Good stuff David.

Tony

[wheat]

Thanks for the replies and advice. The case mouths are belled enough for almost 1/8 inch bullet sits in it before seating. I didn't think of chamfering the inside of the shells but will try that. The bullets I'm using are berry's. They definitely catch the inside of case mouth more than the Win. FMJ or the PC cast with #2 alloy. On more than one occasion, the bullet caught the case mouth enough to buckle the case. Upon pulling the bullet, the plating is pulled off the core. The plating is far less than 1/16 inch thick. I'll work through the problem or try anyway.

[foxtrapper]

Have shot 5 digit amount of berry’s plated 45acp 200 gr swc. In revolvers and in a 1911. Bought and range brass used with no special prep beside being cleaned and checked for splits. Gonna say it and hope I don’t jinx myself, I never had a problem.

[revolvercranker]

Jan 28, 2024 23:18:33 GMT -5 wheat said:

Thanks for the replies and advice. The case mouths are belled enough for almost 1/8 inch bullet sits in it before seating. I didn't think of chamfering the inside of the shells but will try that. The bullets I'm using are berry's. They definitely catch the inside of case mouth more than the Win. FMJ or the PC cast with #2 alloy. On more than one occasion, the bullet caught the case mouth enough to buckle the case. Upon pulling the bullet, the plating is pulled off the core. The plating is far less than 1/16 inch thick. I'll work through the problem or try anyway.

It sounds to me, even though your bullet sits 1/8 inch in (how's is possible for it to catch the edge of the mouth if it sits 1/8th inch in?) that it's not the depth of the flare, but the angle of the bell flare. I use an RCBS expander die that takes the differe diameter expanders and flare. You might invest in one of those. Not making fun of you, just trying to understand how some of the bullet caught the case mouth and buckled it.  This pops into my mind. Your bullet must be cocking when ramming the cartridge up into the seating die. If you bullets sit 1/8 of an inch in the case that's not possible for it to catch the mouth. Are you using the correct seating punch that fits the nose of the bullet? Pull your seating stem out and try a bullet in it for fit.