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Post by parallaxbill on Jan 22, 2024 11:31:57 GMT -5
I'd have been back to the range by now but I'm currently experiencing a bad bout of Sciatica.
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Post by parallaxbill on Jan 26, 2024 15:54:53 GMT -5
Tested it again today with some lightly loaded cast 158 SWCs. Still tight after firing but I did note that if I assisted the cylinder a little while cocking the hammer it would index, but roughly. That makes me think the hand may be doing something it shouldn't.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,606
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Post by jeffh on Jan 29, 2024 21:21:53 GMT -5
Tested it again today with some lightly loaded cast 158 SWCs. Still tight after firing but I did note that if I assisted the cylinder a little while cocking the hammer it would index, but roughly. That makes me think the hand may be doing something it shouldn't.
Is the trigger rebounding completely when you let off it? Is the transfer bar dropping also? If the pawl is sticking/dragging, it might be noticed by a slightly balky trigger return.
Not sure why this would only happen upon firing - and not during dry-fire though, if I'm reading all correctly.
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Post by parallaxbill on Jan 31, 2024 7:26:28 GMT -5
After going through the action numerous times I finally realized that it's most likely the very close cylinder gap. Since all my machinist tools are 40 miles away at my home that I'm soon moving into I haven't checked the gap with my feeler gages. I guess my old eyes convinced me that if I could see light in the cylinder gap it was probably enough, but apparently not. Further evidence was that there is a shiney spot at about 11 o'clock on the face of the barrel and some irregular smudges of carbon on the cylinder face especially around two cylinder holes which indicates the cylinder face is not machined perfectly square.
I'll post up again after I finish making proper cylinder gap corrections.
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Post by bradshaw on Jan 31, 2024 8:30:00 GMT -5
After going through the action numerous times I finally realized that it's most likely the very close cylinder gap. Since all my machinist tools are 40 miles away at my home that I'm soon moving into I haven't checked the gap with my feeler gages. I guess my old eyes convinced me that if I could see light in the cylinder gap it was probably enough, but apparently not. Further evidence was that there is a shiney spot at about 11 o'clock on the face of the barrel and some irregular smudges of carbon on the cylinder face especially around two cylinder holes which indicates the cylinder face is not machined perfectly square. I'll post up again after I finish making proper cylinder gap corrections. ***** Don’t remove metal before you’ve sorted this out. Among areas.... * check for gradou or fouling under the extractor. * with cylinder open, check for free spin on the crane (yoke). * endshake (pawl always tries to push cylinder forward as it rotates. Does end shake exceed cylinder gap? All checks should be run on a clean, lightly lubed revolver. David Bradshaw
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Post by parallaxbill on Jan 31, 2024 16:19:22 GMT -5
Will check!
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 4, 2024 14:19:50 GMT -5
parallaxbill.... photo of STANDING BREECH, aka breech face, and FIRING PIN BUSHING show no evidence of PRIMER BLANKING.
Blanking, common cause * Worn or oversize firing pin hole. * Chipped firing pin. * Weak mainspring. * Extreme pressure. * Primer cup too weak or thin for pressure. * Oversize primer pocket.
BLANKING----primer flow into firing pin hole. Ties up cylinder. Simultaneously try to cock hammer & rotate cylinder. Extruded portion of cup must be sheared for cylinder to rotate. Sheared piece of primer may wedge between case head and standing breech until removed.
Firing pin * Fixed----pin attached to hammer. * Floating----spring-loaded pin in frame.
Timing The sequence of cocking & rotation from chamber to chamber is called TIMING. Cocking, whether initiated by hammer (single action) or trigger (double action), starts the timing sequence.
General sequence 1) Cocking starts with retraction of hammer (SA). 2) Bolt drops below cylinder notch. 3) Pawl rises to rotate cylinder. 4) Bolt rises to index the next chamber. 5) Hammer reaches full cock.
There are permutations in sequence, from maker to maker and by design.
Since your stoppage only happens when you shoot, I would make up a cylinder of dummy rounds to dry fire with revolver upside down, sideways, and continuously. Dummies made with shells you have fired. To analyze stoppage. David Bradshaw
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Post by prisedefer on Feb 5, 2024 12:16:04 GMT -5
parallaxbill..I'm so sorry for this serious conundrum that would drive lesser men insane. But it is a fascinating case that would entertain Sherlock Holmes himself and has caused our champion to fly into action on your behalf. We follow events with bated breath. Good Luck!
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 5, 2024 13:58:06 GMT -5
Here's something to do to narrow down where the problem is. Swing the cylinger open. Operate the actions both single and double. On many double action swing out cylinder revolvers your may have to fool the cylinder release that the cylinder is closed. On Smiths you have to hold the release buttom back. You know what I mean, you're a smart guy. Okay if everthing works both single and double action, then you've narrowed it down to the cylinder being closed. If you think the cylinder is rubbing the back of the barrel, clean the face of the cylinder and marker pen it up good, put fired cases in our cylinder, then work the action and also spin the cylinder to see if any rub marks appear the face of it. Less us know the results of this post.
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Post by parallaxbill on Feb 5, 2024 19:00:29 GMT -5
Will do.
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rhino
.30 Stingray
Posts: 196
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Post by rhino on Feb 9, 2024 17:53:33 GMT -5
This may have been addressed already but could the yoke/crane be bent ever so slight or the ejector rod bent making it bind up. Correct me if I’m wrong but if the ejector rod, yoke/crane are bent could that cause the cylinder to be canted enough to spin free when unloaded but when loaded bind up. I’m just curious what the issue is and how to correct it.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,606
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Post by jeffh on Feb 9, 2024 20:08:57 GMT -5
This may have been addressed already but could the yoke/crane be bent ever so slight or the ejector rod bent making it bind up. Correct me if I’m wrong but if the ejector rod, yoke/crane are bent could that cause the cylinder to be canted enough to spin free when unloaded but when loaded bind up. I’m just curious what the issue is and how to correct it. It would probably cause binding, but from what I've read so far, it only seems to happen after he's fired a round or rounds.
I gather it works OK without rounds.
I have not determined yet if EMPTY CASES can cause the problem to rear its ugly head.
I wish I could get my hands on that gun. There are nuances you can SEE and nuances you can FEEL. I got my first one in 82 and my last one in 2020, I think, and I was still learning new things about them when I ended up doing some detailed trouble-shooting on this last one. I'd bet most who have responded would FEEL the same way about FEELING the thing work.
By the way, the last one I got cost me more than any previous one, even the first brand new one and it had been the most abused. I'd never have believed someone could mess one of these up, but it was an Australian police trade-in and it had some serious miles on it. I don't think it had been fired all that much, but it had been handled, carried and drug along behind a patrol vehicle in the Outback a LOT. OK, I don't know about that last one, but it sure looked like that was what happened, yet it survived and was restorable to perfect function and was accurate.
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Post by parallaxbill on Feb 10, 2024 9:00:04 GMT -5
From my latest messing with it I have measured cylinder face runout at .0015". No measurable runout of the outside of the cylinder or rear face of the cylinder. Action test with empty cases is smooth. Action function smoothness with cylinder swung out is smooth. The binding is not coming from the rear of the cylinder.
I cleaned the carbon from the face of the cylinder and function is smooth but the cylinder gap is still under .002" at the tightest at this point. I think the combination of the runout on the cylinder face and the zero-.0015" gap that I had originally, plus the carbon from firing was enough to cause binding after firing. Remember that I noted the rubbing evidence on the cylinder face and rear of the barrel. I plan to open the cylinder gap to a minimum of .002". If that works I will let it ride.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,606
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Post by jeffh on Feb 10, 2024 11:49:43 GMT -5
OK, I missed that.
.0015" cylinder gap?
Take that in conjunction with what Mr. Bradshaw said about the pawl/hand pushing forward on the cylinder, AND some fouling build-up...
I had a brand new Charter Mag Pug, which started life with more end-shake than should have been after a long-hard life. It did exactly what yours is doing. I cleaned the cylinder face up and colored the whole thing with a Sharpie and cycled it in DA mode several times. You could ten see where the face of the cylinder rubbed against the breech of the barrel - not a continuous circle, but five clean spots from when the pawl was pushing forward. Seemed fine until I'd shot a few rounds.
A stainless shim in the bore of the cylinder cured that problem just fine, so I never bothered Mr. Ecker with that issue.
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 10, 2024 13:19:01 GMT -5
Yes I would pull the cylinder completely apart and thoroughly clean it. Then reassemble it and try it, plus measure the gap then. If it's larger then sounds like you need a shim. Do this before taking some off the breech of the barrel because you can't put metal back on it.
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