1911 Hand Position

[AxeHandle]

Don't doubt that. Askins' time was way before I was even born. Gaming matches drives the addition of rules and limitations. I actually heard of high power rifle shooters doing something like David describes to induce malfunctions. At that point in time the alibi allowed them to refire the target.

[bradshaw]

Jan 6, 2024 7:21:17 GMT -5 AxeHandle said:

Don't doubt that. Askins' time was way before I was even born. Gaming matches drives the addition of rules and limitations. I actually heard of high power rifle shooters doing something like David describes to induce malfunctions. At that point in time the alibi allowed them to refire the target.

*****

Stan.... not sure what you mean by inducing a stoppage on, say, an M1 oe M-14. You’d have to put your offhand in the path of the operating rod. On recoil, the op rod would chop the hand like a dull meat axe, not a good deal. Anyway, I don’t recall anyone trying to induce a stoppage in High Power competition.

In handgun silhouette, a crossfire or blow-down that denies you a target, or targets, must be observed and calls for an alibi----one alibi shot for each target not available. A gun malfunction, including breakage, doesn’t get diddly.

Principle for No Alibi
* Practical, self defense----can’t tell an assailant to come back after you get your stoppage fixed.
* Silhouette, hunting----can’t tell your prey to come back after you get your stoppage fixed.
David Bradshaw

[AxeHandle]

M1 Specifically. Tale told to me was that NG All National Guard Rifle Team Member, USAF Distinguished Rifleman, NRA High Master, President's 100, Chief's 50, and very large man, CMSGT Richard Garrison, could squeeze the M1 in such a way that the gun would malfunction and a alibi would be allowed. No reason for me to doubt it. Didn't read it in a book. Heard the tale from the man himself. Richard was a world class shooter, gunsmith, and a personal friend.

Need to separate individual alibi from range alibi. In bullseye they are not the same and are NOT treated the same.
Lots of finer points in rules. We have gun breakage rules and malfunction alibis and range alibis. FWIW you can change guns between matches in bullseye. Slow fire, National Match Course, Timed fire, and Rapid fire are separate matches within the 900 point aggregate. If you gun breaks in the middle of a match, a disabled weapon must be declared, and the shooter can change guns. However... All round fired count. So anything that was fired before the gun broke counts for record. Say the shooter's gun broke 3 rounds into the rapid fire string and was declared disabled. The shooter would change guns and continue. That specific target would now have 13 rounds on it when scored. The low 10 would be the shooters official score.

[revolvercranker]

Jan 6, 2024 11:51:34 GMT -5 AxeHandle said:

M1 Specifically. Tale told to me was that NG All National Guard Rifle Team Member, USAF Distinguished Rifleman, NRA High Master, President's 100, Chief's 50, and very large man, CMSGT Richard Garrison, could squeeze the M1 in such a way that the gun would malfunction and a alibi would be allowed. No reason for me to doubt it. Didn't read it in a book. Heard the tale from the man himself. Richard was a world class shooter, gunsmith, and a personal friend.

Need to separate individual alibi from range alibi. In bullseye they are not the same and are NOT treated the same.
Lots of finer points in rules. We have gun breakage rules and malfunction alibis and range alibis. FWIW you can change guns between matches in bullseye. Slow fire, National Match Course, Timed fire, and Rapid fire are separate matches within the 900 point aggregate. If you gun breaks in the middle of a match, a disabled weapon must be declared, and the shooter can change guns. However... All round fired count. So anything that was fired before the gun broke counts for record. Say the shooter's gun broke 3 rounds into the rapid fire string and was declared disabled. The shooter would change guns and continue. That specific target would now have 13 rounds on it when scored. The low 10 would be the shooters official score. 

I have very large hands. Sometimes when shooting my M1 Garand, if I'm holding it wrong, I can feel the op rod slide past my fingers, but it never made it malfunction.  I wonder if the fellow you are talking about squeezed the wood so hard that the rod was underneath that caused it to malfunction. 

[KRal]

I do.

[Ken O'Neill]

As David indicated above, "target not available" was the only legitimate reason for an IHMSA alibi. Broken guns, targets that didn't fall were not legitimate alibis, although some Match Directors sometimes violated the rules by allowing alibis for hard set targets.

In 2 posts above, Stan clearly explains the NRA scoring of alibi runs being the lowest scoring 10 shots.

Obviously, we've hijacked this thread enough to turn Fermin's (remaining) hair grey.

So ... Hey Kim: you do what? Induce M1 stoppages by squeezing, or ride the 1911 safety? Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm done with my hijacking.

[rjm52]

Shoot all my handguns the same...hammer grip with the shooting hand, support hand wrapped around so the rear edges of the palms meet like a clamshell. Support thumb holding down the primary thumb.

[KRal]

“
So ... Hey Kim: you do what? Induce M1 stoppages by squeezing, or ride the 1911 safety? Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm done with my hijacking.”

Ken, I was answered the original posters question of who lets their thumb rest on the safety.

[AxeHandle]

Dang! Answered the original posters question? What a novel concept! Wonder if 2 Dawgs could start us a thread to make us act right?

[Ken O'Neill]

Jan 7, 2024 9:04:32 GMT -5 KRal said:

“
So ... Hey Kim: you do what? Induce M1 stoppages by squeezing, or ride the 1911 safety? Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm done with my hijacking.”

Ken, I was answered the original posters question of who lets their thumb rest on the safety.

Yeah, I know. Couldn't resist.