Is .45 Colt +P Really OK for S&W 25-5 and New Ruger SAs?

[TXTad]

I have a 25-5 that has never made it to the range with me despite my having had it for 20 years. I'm expecting to rectify that soon, and hope to work up some 454424 and 270SAA loads for it and my other .45 Colt revolvers: a 625-7 Mountain Gun, two Vaqueros, and a Blackhawk Bisley. The Rugers are all the older, heavier ones. In addition to some easy loads, I want to load some +P loads, targeting 1,000 to 1,100 fps with these bullets. I want loads that I can use in any of these guns and do not plan to load any Ruger specific loads.* I've read Pearce's articles and I've seen others suggesting that the 23,000 psi loads are fine for the S&Ws as the same guns are chambered in .45 ACP. Well, 23 kpsi is +P for ACP, so why has that level been chosen as the top for these guns? I think that 21 kpsi would be more reasonable.

Some questions for discussion:

Are the S&W 25s and newer Rugers really OK with these loads at all?

What about a steady diet of loads at these levels?

Can 1,000 fps be reached at 20 to 21 kpsi?

* I may load some heavier loads for the Bisley later, but I'm going to mark the heck out of them and keep them away from the other loads.

[Encore64]

There's no doubt in my mind that the 23k PSI Data is fine in the S&W 25. Many load to Ruger Only Loads, but I've always thought that was a bad idea.

Many have shot the 25s in 45 ACP many thousands of times with no ill effects.

There's no reason the 45 Colt won't do the same. A number of powders will get you there...

[Odin]

There's an old Gun Notes article in which John Linebaugh discusses the pressure ceiling for the Model 25. Using the same logic to figure the pressure limit of Ruger cylinders (44Mag dimensions vs. 45Colt dimensions), he correctly reasons that yes indeed, the Smith can be loaded to the same level as the Ruger Blackhawk. But (and this is a critical exception), due to the wear-prone nature of the Smith's swing-out cylinder, Linebaugh suggested limiting pressure to 25k psi. He found at 25k one attained plenty of performance yet the guns would stay tight far, far longer than the Model 29's.

With Ruger midframes in the mix, I'd set my pressure limit at 23k psi and not give it another thought. It is, after all, the pressure level that Ruger has rated the flattops and Vaqueros to.

[Odin]

Gun Notes PDF

[Fowler]

The 270-SAA can be driven to 1000fps and stay within 20k pressures all day long. I don’t find them particularly fun to shoot in my 45 colt Mountain Gun but it is the load that generally is in my gun when it is on my hip in any sort of working conditions.

Personally I run a 230gr load at 850ish velo that hits to the sights the same at 25 yards for a more fun range load.

[sixguntech]

Best load I have found with the 270 SAA bullet is Brian Pearce’s load of 18.0 grains of Accurate No.9. This load does a true 1100-1200 fps. (At 23K psi) In 5”-61/2” barrels.All the power I really want from an S&W Model 25. I can imagine it would be a handful in the small frame Ruger. Steve

[bushog]

Read the article on the S&Ws that Odin posted above. You have to scroll down to the right article…

[gnappi]

Nov 24, 2023 16:21:07 GMT -5 Odin said:

Gun Notes PDF

 Thanks, I never saw that. 

[lar4570]

I believe that TXTad said his Rugers were all the large frame guns, so no mid-size restrictions needed.
You can easily reach 1000-1100fps, while keeping the pressures down, with slower powders like 2400 or 4227. You might burn a little more powder vs Unique or A#2, but the pressures will be lower and there will be less muzzle pressure, so the muzzle blast should be reduced also.
For light loads, A#2 works great in large cases as it's not position sensitive.
Many people like HS6 for mid level loads, it's a good powder also.
Now if you want some top end loads for the Bisley, fill the case to the base of the bullet with H110, seat and apply a heavy roll crimp.

[edk]

There is published data for 1000+fps 230gr loads using Ramshot enforcer for the 45ACP (standard pressure).

[Encore64]

Nov 25, 2023 11:26:10 GMT -5 edk said:

There is published data for 1000+fps 230gr loads using Ramshot enforcer for the 45ACP (standard pressure).

I tried these and had terrible luck. Think that's why Ramshot no longer recommends it.

Now, Power Pistol will give spectacular performance in the 45 ACP/AR...

[Stump Buster]

Not sure about a steady diet, but I will relate a story about the time I shot with Mr. Linebaugh while visiting his shop a few years ago.

I had brought along a few sixguns while on a recon trip through Idaho, Wyoming and Montana. One of them was a S&W 25-9 in 45 Colt. After graciously meeting with us for dinner in Cody one evening, John had invited my friend Tom and I to visit and shoot with him at his shop the following day. We were shooting up the only ammo I had thrown in the truck for the trip, some tame loads a local doctor sold at the local gun show. I had loaded a cylinder full and handed the 25-9 to John and as luck would have it, the 2nd or 3rd shot he touched off looked and sounded like a 454 Casull load had snuck into one of the chambers, surprising all of us and especially Mr. 45 Colt himself. He removed the remaining cartridges and we took the revolver inside the shop to take a closer look at the cylinder, frame and barrel to inspect for bulges or damage. John measured everything and inspected every inch for any damage. Nothing, not a scratch! I didn't shoot any more of those loads out of that revolver (shot the rest of them out of a Rossi 92 without incident). The load must have been a badly thrown charge which ended up being a "proof load", that ended up in the hands of the man who could handle it and had the tools at his immediate disposal to check for damage. John declared the revolver "a Good One!" and I've done all the loading for it myself ever since.

Again, not sure I'd whomp on a S&W 25 with every shot fired, but they can likely handle more than just an occasional Level 2 load every now and then (just as Mr. Linebaugh wrote in his articles on the S&W 25-5).


Mike


As a side note: This was the trip Tom and I also got a chance to meet and shoot with members callshot (Steve) and sixshot (Dick) in Soda Springs, and on the way home, my wife and I had lunch with Mr. and Mrs. Taffin in Boise. It was by far, one of the most enjoyable road trips of my lifetime and I'm forever grateful for all of their hospitality.

[TXTad]

This sounds like an excellent trip, and the story certainly gives me confidence about working loads up into the 900 to 1,000 fps range. I've had second thoughts on 1,100 fps, except maybe with 230 gr loads. A 250 gr bullet at 1,000 fps has 555 ft.lbs. I think that is adequate. Maybe I should target 450 to 500 ft.lbs. and call it done.

I also am going to work up some 830-ish fps 230gr loads, because two world wars.

Nov 25, 2023 17:42:02 GMT -5 Stump Buster said:

Not sure about a steady diet, but I will relate a story about the time I shot with Mr. Linebaugh while visiting his shop a few years ago.

I had brought along a few sixguns while on a recon trip through Idaho, Wyoming and Montana. One of them was a S&W 25-9 in 45 Colt. After graciously meeting with us for dinner in Cody one evening, John had invited my friend Tom and I to visit and shoot with him at his shop the following day. We were shooting up the only ammo I had thrown in the truck for the trip, some tame loads a local doctor sold at the local gun show. I had loaded a cylinder full and handed the 25-9 to John and as luck would have it, the 2nd or 3rd shot he touched off looked and sounded like a 454 Casull load had snuck into one of the chambers, surprising all of us and especially Mr. 45 Colt himself. He removed the remaining cartridges and we took the revolver inside the shop to take a closer look at the cylinder, frame and barrel to inspect for bulges or damage. John measured everything and inspected every inch for any damage. Nothing, not a scratch! I didn't shoot any more of those loads out of that revolver (shot the rest of them out of a Rossi 92 without incident). The load must have been a badly thrown charge which ended up being a "proof load", that ended up in the hands of the man who could handle it and had the tools at his immediate disposal to check for damage. John declared the revolver "a Good One!" and I've done all the loading for it myself ever since.

Again, not sure I'd whomp on a S&W 25 with every shot fired, but they can likely handle more than just an occasional Level 2 load every now and then (just as Mr. Linebaugh wrote in his articles on the S&W 25-5).


Mike


As a side note: This was the trip Tom and I also got a chance to meet and shoot with members callshot (Steve) and sixshot (Dick) in Soda Springs, and on the way home, my wife and I had lunch with Mr. and Mrs. Taffin in Boise. It was by far, one of the most enjoyable road trips of my lifetime and I'm forever grateful for all of their hospitality.

[bigbore5]

Subscribe to Loaddata.com. They list numerous loads fitting what you asked about. Including some developed in the 625's and some specifically at the 20,000psi ceiling.

[45MAN]

FOR MY 45 COLT S&W LOADS I PREFER TO STICK WITH BULLETS IN THE 250-260gr WEIGHT RANGE. MY MOST USED S&W LOAD IS A CAST, POWDER COATED 250gr RNFP OVER 10.5grs OF UNIQUE IN NICKELED STARLINE CASES USING WLP PRIMERS, GOOD FOR 1,067fps IN MY 4" 625 MOUNTAIN GUN, AND CLOSE TO 100fps MORE IN A TIGHT CHAMBERED 5.5" RUGER BISLEY. IN THE MOUNTAIN GUN IT WILL DO MOST ANYTHING I NEED DONE WITH IT. MY THINKING IS THAT HEAVIER BULLETS MAY BATTER THE SMITHS TOO MUCH WITH HIGH END S&W LOADS SO I STICK TO THE 250-260gr BULLETS.