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Post by singleaction on Nov 11, 2023 12:35:48 GMT -5
I’m about to take possession of a like new blued NM FT Blackhawk in 45 Colt with an auxiliary 45 ACP cylinder. While I find 45 ACP to be an excellent and economical option, I would rather have another 45 colt cylinder with .455” throats, so I can shoot .454”-.455” bullets. My Lyman 454190 and RCBS 45-270SAA bullets would not need to squeezed down, and I could have other bullet option at my disposal, as well. Are there any possible issues with this conversion, other than making sure the reamer is wide enough to properly clean up the chambers? I have a set of RCBS 45 Colt dies, from the 70’s, that I have used to load for a mid-70’s era Blackhawk 45 Colt with grossly oversized, chambers, and throats. They seem to have been designed for loading for the wider bullets, as they don’t provide much purchase for .452” bullets. Thanks.
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Post by kaytod on Nov 11, 2023 17:11:51 GMT -5
I would rather invest the money in a proper mold rather than modify a cylinder. If your new gun has throats that are .452-.453, I'd consider then nearly perfect. Just my .02
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Post by leadhound on Nov 11, 2023 20:55:08 GMT -5
It's your stuff, but doubt those 45 acp cylinders are very common. I'd have to vote it a mistake to alter it.
Seems cheaper to get a new sizing die for your brass and then only flare the brass enough to start the bullet and the tension should improve greatly. I would imagine it would be more accurate as well. And you'd still have the 45 acp cylinder to boot.
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Odin
.327 Meteor
Posts: 971
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Post by Odin on Nov 11, 2023 22:28:35 GMT -5
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're wanting a 45 Colt cylinder with throats that match dimensionally with your other gun. Were it mine, I'd simply send the Colt cylinder off to have the throats opened up.
As has been mentioned, those ACP cylinders are something of a thing. I know I'd love to find a spare that fits my flattop so I could rechamber it to 45 Schofield. If you had no use for yours, you could always sell it to fund the throat work on the Colt cylinder.
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Post by singleaction on Nov 12, 2023 0:15:30 GMT -5
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're wanting a 45 Colt cylinder with throats that match dimensionally with your other gun. I would like the throats to match the unsized bullets from the molds I mentioned. I firmly believe that the less cast bullets have to be sized, the better chance they have to be accurate. Yes, they will effectively get sized down when they hit the forcing cone, but I still believe it makes a difference. Having two cylinders with the two different throat dimensions would cover a lot of different bullet offerings. I have sizing dies for .452” as well as the old dies designed for the wider bullets. The 45 Colt is notorious in Colt, S&W, and other makes of revolvers for having varying, and (most often) overly wide throats. Especially with older guns. That is why the Lyman and RCBS bullets I mentioned are .454”-.455” straight from the mold. Winchester and Remington’s old 255 grain standard 45 Colt loads that have been in continuous production for well over 100 years have .454” to .455” soft lead round nose bullets, and one of the two is hollow base. This because of the common wide throats on the old guns. Most commercial cast bullets these days run .452”, and the first cylinder will cover those. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 8:50:21 GMT -5
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're wanting a 45 Colt cylinder with throats that match dimensionally with your other gun. I would like the throats to match the unsized bullets from the molds I mentioned. I firmly believe that the less cast bullets have to be sized, the better chance they have to be accurate. Yes, they will effectively get sized down when they hit the forcing cone, but I still believe it makes a difference. Having two cylinders with the two different throat dimensions would cover a lot of different bullet offerings. I have sizing dies for .452” as well as the old dies designed for the wider bullets. The 45 Colt is notorious in Colt, S&W, and other makes of revolvers for having varying, and (most often) overly wide throats. Especially with older guns. That is why the Lyman and RCBS bullets I mentioned are .454”-.455” straight from the mold. Winchester and Remington’s old 255 grain standard 45 Colt loads that have been in continuous production for well over 100 years have .454” to .455” soft lead round nose bullets, and one of the two is hollow base. This because of the common wide throats on the old guns. Most commercial cast bullets these days run .452”, and the first cylinder will cover those. Do you lube your bullets? I guess with tumble or pan lube you dont have to run through a sizer. Powder coating adds dimensions. You are the only person Ive ever heard of wanting a cylinder with oversize throats. I understand what you are saying. From my experience the fatter bullets get worked more inside the brass case as well. Letting the forcing cone size the bullets increases pressures. Ive never heard another person express that scenario adding accuracy. Ive always experienced the opposite. I think they used soft lead bullets back in the day. Maybe thats your plan. Anyway its your fun to have. I dont mean to sound dismissive as I am interested to see your results. Im just expressing my experiences. |
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shorty500
.327 Meteor
too many dirty harry movies created me!
Posts: 912
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Post by shorty500 on Nov 12, 2023 9:33:04 GMT -5
Not the route I’d go down either. As long as I can remember I’ve had 2 sets of dies one for .452 and a second setup for larger dimensions. Multiple molds casting various diameters and sizing dies to cover all the bases. I load based entirely on gun said ammo will be shot thru. While I own and have owned multiple .45s with larger throats I’d never intentionally create a cylinder just to shoot oversized slugs
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Post by singleaction on Nov 12, 2023 9:39:48 GMT -5
I would like the throats to match the unsized bullets from the molds I mentioned. I firmly believe that the less cast bullets have to be sized, the better chance they have to be accurate. Yes, they will effectively get sized down when they hit the forcing cone, but I still believe it makes a difference. Having two cylinders with the two different throat dimensions would cover a lot of different bullet offerings. I have sizing dies for .452” as well as the old dies designed for the wider bullets. The 45 Colt is notorious in Colt, S&W, and other makes of revolvers for having varying, and (most often) overly wide throats. Especially with older guns. That is why the Lyman and RCBS bullets I mentioned are .454”-.455” straight from the mold. Winchester and Remington’s old 255 grain standard 45 Colt loads that have been in continuous production for well over 100 years have .454” to .455” soft lead round nose bullets, and one of the two is hollow base. This because of the common wide throats on the old guns. Most commercial cast bullets these days run .452”, and the first cylinder will cover those. Do you lube your bullets? I guess with tumble or pan lube you dont have to run through a sizer. Powder coating adds dimensions. You are the only person Ive ever heard of wanting a cylinder with oversize throats. I understand what you are saying. From my experience the fatter bullets get worked more inside the brass case as well. Letting the forcing cone size the bullets increases pressures. Ive never heard another person express that scenario adding accuracy. Ive always experienced the opposite. I think they used soft lead bullets back in the day. Maybe thats your plan. Anyway it’s your fun to have. I dont mean to sound dismissive as I am interested to see your results. Im just expressing my experiences. I will have to dig through my old Hanloader magazine articles. Dave Scoville, who designed the 45-270SAA bullet, mentioned that he generally had better accuracy from that bullet (which is designed to throw wider bullets for wider throat guns) when unsized. I have a lubamatic-II, and use LBT blue soft (MESSY, and lube comes out of places it shouldn’t!). When going from .454”-455” I’ve always had some issues with bullets deforming a little. Sizing bottom first is not the best way, but it’s what I’ve had for many years, and works fine for most of my bullets. I’ve thought about switching to a Star sizer, but haven’t wanted to spend the money. I cast the before mentioned bullets from straight wheel weights un-hardened, and velocity/pressure is in the 45 Colt standard pressure category. Any pressure increase from not resizing is negligible. I was expecting comments on the sacrilegiousness and illogic of doing this conversion. Fair enough, and I thank you all for commenting. All good points to reconsider. Does anyone have an answer for my original question? Thanks. |
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 12, 2023 9:44:37 GMT -5
Your conversion idea should work just fine. Clements told me he'd rechambered quite a number of 45 ACP Cylinders to 45 Schofield.
The Schofield is chambered with a 45 Colt Reamer, just not cut as deep.
I don't think you'll have any issues with this...
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Post by singleaction on Nov 12, 2023 9:48:18 GMT -5
Your conversion idea should work just fine. Clements told me he'd rechambered quite a number of 45 ACP Cylinders to 45 Schofield. The Schofield is chambered with a 45 Colt Reamer, just not cut as deep. I don't think you'll have any issues with this... Thanks you! |
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Post by bigbore5 on Nov 12, 2023 13:46:59 GMT -5
Why convert the acp cylinder? They are not as common as some others.
If it were up to me, and I wanted to do a project like this, I would open the throats on the Colt cylinder since it's chambers will usually be a bit loose anyway. I would offer up the acp cylinder to trade for a suitable SBH cylinder, or sell and buy the other cylinder.
Since you're rechambering anyway, the SBH cylinder can be chambered to a Linebaugh or minimum spec dimension. That will provide long case life at the level you said you were shooting plus maximum accuracy for the barrel and load you are using.
If you don't like sizing base first, get a Lee sizer kit. A shot of case lube over your bullets, push through. You can then use the lube sizer to just lube them.
I also use LBT blue in a Lyman 450. Sounds like you have some bad o-rings. I don't have lube everywhere problems and my sizer is pretty old, but I keep good o-rings in it
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Post by singleaction on Nov 12, 2023 15:50:19 GMT -5
Why convert the acp cylinder? They are not as common as some others. If it were up to me, and I wanted to do a project like this, I would open the throats on the Colt cylinder since it's chambers will usually be a bit loose anyway. I would offer up the acp cylinder to trade for a suitable SBH cylinder, or sell and buy the other cylinder. Since you're rechambering anyway, the SBH cylinder can be chambered to a Linebaugh or minimum spec dimension. That will provide long case life at the level you said you were shooting plus maximum accuracy for the barrel and load you are using. If you don't like sizing base first, get a Lee sizer kit. A shot of case lube over your bullets, push through. You can then use the lube sizer to just lube them. I also use LBT blue in a Lyman 450. Sounds like you have some bad o-rings. I don't have lube everywhere problems and my sizer is pretty old, but I keep good o-rings in it This is the mid-frame flattop model, so rechambering a take-off 44 special is possible, but I won’t bother. I won’t lose a second of sleep over rechambering my 45 ACP cylinder. Thanks |
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Post by contender on Nov 13, 2023 21:40:45 GMT -5
I too feel it's not the best of ideas to re-chamber that cylinder to a larger diameter. But aside from the obvious answers above,, there are a few other considerations.
What may happen to it after your temporary custodianship is over? (Remember we are all just temporary owners!)
And the next thing to consider,,! Have you slugged your barrel to see what your groove diameter is? If your barrel groove is smaller,, you'll be squeezing those bullets way down in it.
Can it be done? Yes.
Will it hurt anything? Most likely not.
But you mention the oversized older gun, "mid-70’s era Blackhawk 45 Colt with grossly oversized, chambers, and throats."
This begs the question,, what are the NEW gun's measurements?
A wise gunsmith told me long ago; "Work on the cheapest parts to replace, first." If you need larger bullets,, fine,, but I'd slug it, AND shoot it with matching bullets BEFORE making any mods.
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edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,107
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Post by edk on Nov 14, 2023 7:36:30 GMT -5
Ruger 45 Flattop cylinders would appear to be the most tight and consistent chambered 45s I've ever come across. All I've measured are 0.480" at the web. Sadly throats tend to be tight as well however remedied quite easily.
On the other hand I'm not a believer in oversized bullets through a small bore. Some claim there is no penalty however nothing in life is really free. When sizing cast bullets there is noticeably increased effort while swaging 0.455" cast bullets down to 0.452" vs starting with a mold that drops 0.4525". To think that velocity, accuracy or wear on the firearm are not affected whatsoever seems naïve. Hard to measure? Yes, and perhaps that is the basis for the "no penalty" claim as it won't be challenged.
The only 0.454" bullets I fire are through 0.454" groove barrels.
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Post by junebug on Nov 14, 2023 10:56:09 GMT -5
I have an early 70's new model Blackhawk that had loose cylinder and tight throats. I opened the throats to .452 but can't change the cylinder specs. Haven't shot it in years but the cases swell noticeable larger than my other two 45's so I just keep them separate from my other brass. If it takes pressure to swage bullets by hand, it raises pressure to swage them with powder.
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