wpeel
.30 Stingray
Posts: 201 
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Post by wpeel on May 24, 2023 9:54:11 GMT -5
I'm trying to like my Charter .44 Bulldog Pug, but can't. Doesn't shoot to the sights and at least two of the chambers result in a harder trigger squeeze and then a sudden release. The gun went back to Charter and Mr. Ecker looked it over. Said it had a bent ejector rod and was slightly out of time. Fixed it and sent it back. The action was still rough.
Here's the odd thing. If I use my middle finger on the trigger, the DA pull "seems" smoother and doesn't "hitch" as much. (That obviously places my index finger in danger with live ammo.) I'm "guessing" that it changes the distance slightly of trigger reach and places me in a better mechanical position. Using a normal index finger results in the rougher action. It also has the factory, made for Charter Pachmayer grip. I always shoot DA revolvers in that mode, so my finger strength isn't an issue.
Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm leery of trying to disassemble and stone/polish engagement points, since I've not done a Charter before. Were it a S&W, this post wouldn't necessary and I could really improve the action. The ratchet doesn't appear to have any burrs....
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,744
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Post by jeffh on May 24, 2023 10:00:57 GMT -5
My poor long suffering Bulldog has had to put up with more of my experimenting and tweeking of loads than anything here. Simple version is it's been pretty forgiving of loads/bullets. I doubt if it's ever been fired from a bench, or at anything beyond 50yds.. I'll just say I've stayed at 6-7grs of Unique, or slightly slower powders adjusted to give similar performance, like PowerPistol and Longshot. Bullets ...180gr FWC's, 205/210gr class RNFP softish cowboy type bullets. Matt's Bullets has a dizzying array of choices of suitable and fun options. I've some of his 135gr little RN with 8shot under them, A mini buck-n-ball load sorts. Shot loads, rice loads, sigh..so much fun. When you get to nom weight or beyond, the recoil climbs, and remember, it is a small gun, it will remind you.
"Long-suffering..." That defines my first Bulldog - a stainless, 3" model with the pocket hammer.
Before anyone scoffs at the "50-yard" comment, I'll back it up 100%. After I got my first one (3"), I found a spot to shoot in the hills with a great backstop - a BIG, steep hill, where a lot of others shot. A hundred yards out, there was a steel plate stuck in the ground that was about two feet tall and a foot and a half wide. I got the silly notion to take a poke at it one day, off-hand, and put five of five on that plate with commercially-cast 240 grain SWCs and 6.5 grains of Unique. After that, I made it a point to shoot at something at that distance each time I went out.
The gun's dang near a snubby, "cheap" and chambered for a slow, old-timey cartridge, but has turned out to be my all-time favorite 44 Special, and Ive had a bunch of them.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,744
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Post by jeffh on May 24, 2023 10:32:58 GMT -5
I'm trying to like my Charter .44 Bulldog Pug, but can't. Doesn't shoot to the sights and at least two of the chambers result in a harder trigger squeeze and then a sudden release. The gun went back to Charter and Mr. Ecker looked it over. Said it had a bent ejector rod and was slightly out of time. Fixed it and sent it back. The action was still rough. Here's the odd thing. If I use my middle finger on the trigger, the DA pull "seems" smoother and doesn't "hitch" as much. (That obviously places my index finger in danger with live ammo.) I'm "guessing" that it changes the distance slightly of trigger reach and places me in a better mechanical position. Using a normal index finger results in the rougher action. It also has the factory, made for Charter Pachmayer grip. I always shoot DA revolvers in that mode, so my finger strength isn't an issue. Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm leery of trying to disassemble and stone/polish engagement points, since I've not done a Charter before. Were it a S&W, this post wouldn't necessary and I could really improve the action. The ratchet doesn't appear to have any burrs.... I ran one with a bent ejector rod for some time without knowing it, until I took it apart. Sine the cylinder is supported via the ejector rod at both end of the cylinder (not way out at the end of the rod), it would be tough to bend one to where it cause an issue, short of the end of the rod rubbing the barrel, which sounds like what was going on with yours.
Taking one apart is easy.
Putting it back together can be a little bit of a challenge, but it's worth the effort. Disassembling the cylinder/crane/ejector assembly is the puzzle, as is reassembling it, but knowing the "trick" (video on Charter's site) makes is easy. Getting the trigger/pawl/transfer bar back in will induce the creation of a few new cuss-words - even if you don't cuss.
A 3" vise, with the frame upside down, a slave pin for the trigger pivot will go a long way to make it easier.
PAY ATTENTION to the ends of the pins before knocking them out of the frame! One end of each pin is splined and must go out ONE WAY and back in the opposite way. A very light dab of BLUE Loctite will be helpful.
The design of the engagement surfaces inside are pretty standard/obvious. I've never touched a Charter SA sear notch (on the hammer) because I've never had to until I got this most recent 357 Mag Pug Bulldog. It's so small that I can't see it (old eyes) and it really only acts like a little warning before breaking, so I haven't messed with it. Everything else is obvious.
I almost wonder if a set of trigger shims might help on yours. Maybe after some clean-up, it would be fine though. I've never used shims on the trigger, but have on the hammer.
Nothing I've ever done to a Bulldog is anything I haven't had to do on a Ruger - just less and less often, so it's probably within your range of ability already.
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Post by bula on May 24, 2023 11:31:28 GMT -5
I'll see your "quote", and raise you a "Like" ! Don't recall anyone here, in any thread, mentioning that any time you go up in bore and/or cartridge size(hull), you gain a wider expanse of projectile type and weights. Revolver rounds favored a bit here.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,744
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Post by jeffh on May 24, 2023 15:15:54 GMT -5
I'll see your "quote", and raise you a "Like" ! Don't recall anyone here, in any thread, mentioning that any time you go up in bore and/or cartridge size(hull), you gain a wider expanse of projectile type and weights. Revolver rounds favored a bit here.
There certainly are a bunch of them. I always though that there just HAD to be something "better" invented since the early twenties and tried a bunch, but finally gave up and ordered my last 44 mould as a 4C 429421 clone.
I shot "round balls" out of the Bulldogs and they shot better than in other things I've tried them in, but if I'm going to expend a precious primer today, I'm going to get the most out of it I can in terms of accuracy and effect.
There is most of a box of fifty Speer shotshells loaded up for them, which I loaded back in the mid-nineties, I believe. Just never found a real use for them, but out of the 3" BDs, they pattern tighter than any I've shot out of longer-barreled guns. I just saw two whole unused boxes of the capsules in an ammo can the other day while looking for something else. I wonder if they even make those any more?
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Post by reflex264 on May 24, 2023 15:33:57 GMT -5
I'm trying to like my Charter .44 Bulldog Pug, but can't. Doesn't shoot to the sights and at least two of the chambers result in a harder trigger squeeze and then a sudden release. The gun went back to Charter and Mr. Ecker looked it over. Said it had a bent ejector rod and was slightly out of time. Fixed it and sent it back. The action was still rough. Here's the odd thing. If I use my middle finger on the trigger, the DA pull "seems" smoother and doesn't "hitch" as much. (That obviously places my index finger in danger with live ammo.) I'm "guessing" that it changes the distance slightly of trigger reach and places me in a better mechanical position. Using a normal index finger results in the rougher action. It also has the factory, made for Charter Pachmayer grip. I always shoot DA revolvers in that mode, so my finger strength isn't an issue. Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm leery of trying to disassemble and stone/polish engagement points, since I've not done a Charter before. Were it a S&W, this post wouldn't necessary and I could really improve the action. The ratchet doesn't appear to have any burrs.... Hard to answer not knowing you exact smithing capabilities. I have been able to get really nice smooth actions on them without a lot of hassle. Here are some pics I did while doing an action job. The newer guns are notorious for having rough machine marks left from milling operations. The hammer will drag on the frame and create some of what you are describing.     Tools needed  |
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,744
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Post by jeffh on May 24, 2023 18:50:50 GMT -5
Agreed, "Hard to answer not knowing you exact smithing capabilities" as well as eyes on the gun.
The only things I can imagine would affect the pull on only two chambers is:
1) possibly the ejector rod is still bent/bent again and rubbing on the bottom of the barrel;
2) something amiss on the ratchet/extractor;
3) a cylinder face which is not perpendicular to the axis of the cylinder - look for rub marks on the face of the cylinder, rubbing against the breech.
#3 - the last one I bough (Mag Pug, 3") had some issues. Charter took care of them with the exception of one I did not notice while dealing with the others, most notably, a front sight which was way too low, causing POI to be way too high. Once that was corrected, I found that the cylinder would bind a bit after I shot a few rounds. I eventually noticed rub marks on the dirty face of the cylinder. The pawl was forcing the cylinder forward and against the breech. a .002" shim in the bore of the cylinder solved that perfectly.
I am not 100% certain, but I dislike and distrust the new way of keeping the cylinder from coming off when you eject cases. The old stud on the frame worked perfectly, but the new design does not impress me, though I cannot attribute any issue to it with any certainty.
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Post by reflex264 on May 25, 2023 7:27:26 GMT -5
Agreed, "Hard to answer not knowing you exact smithing capabilities" as well as eyes on the gun. The only things I can imagine would affect the pull on only two chambers is: 1) possibly the ejector rod is still bent/bent again and rubbing on the bottom of the barrel; 2) something amiss on the ratchet/extractor; 3) a cylinder face which is not perpendicular to the axis of the cylinder - look for rub marks on the face of the cylinder, rubbing against the breech. #3 - the last one I bough (Mag Pug, 3") had some issues. Charter took care of them with the exception of one I did not notice while dealing with the others, most notably, a front sight which was way too low, causing POI to be way too high. Once that was corrected, I found that the cylinder would bind a bit after I shot a few rounds. I eventually noticed rub marks on the dirty face of the cylinder. The pawl was forcing the cylinder forward and against the breech. a .002" shim in the bore of the cylinder solved that perfectly. I am not 100% certain, but I dislike and distrust the new way of keeping the cylinder from coming off when you eject cases. The old stud on the frame worked perfectly, but the new design does not impress me, though I cannot attribute any issue to it with any certainty.[/font][/b] I agree wholeheartedly. None of my new ones have had an issue but the thought is always there. |
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,744
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Post by jeffh on May 25, 2023 10:22:10 GMT -5
I've shared this link before (like every time Charters come up), because it's the most thorough history of Charter - up to a point. unblinkingeye.com/Guns/CAR/car.htmlEd is a good fella too. He'd probably get a kick out of answering a question for someone showing an interest in these guns. I don't think he gets out as much as he used to, but he did write a new article a few months ago about an old, foreign auto-loader, which I have forgotten to reply to him on. In my personal opinion, Bridgeport and Stratford-production guns are the primo specimens. Look on the right side of the barrel. Since Nick Ecker regained control of the company, he has introduced several feature innovations, like Bulldogs with 4" and 5" barrels, sans the "shroud" so many demeaned for so long - yet it's the de rigueur of cost-cutting/weight-saving measures among the more prominent makers today. No, I'm not pulling punches. I seriously dislike the corner-cutting today, which comes with cheap rationalizations and even higher prices. "Full underlugs" on EVERYTHING is one of those things. OK if it's a target/hunting piece, but adds weight (cuts machining costs) to guns which should be compact and light for real-world use. Hey, if it kicks too hard, get a heavier gun chambered in a milder cartridge, right? Sorry. Anyway, I think Mr. Ecker would/could do more neat stuff with his revolvers, but I also believe that the market for something compact, light, inexpensive and that you won't feel badly about carrying in a tackle box, sweat-soaked pocket or glove compartment overwhelms production. Their fairly recent "Professional" series is a good indication of some refinement potential for the design, but you just don't see them available like the "run of the mill" Charter mainstays. I personally like the design well enough that stopped waiting for exactly what I wanted and grabbed the closest thing and have put considerable work into it, making a FIXED rear sight, installing one of Fermin's wonderful front sights and totally reshaping a set of wood grips for it. Can't find three-inch holsters like I want, so I had to make those too. This one isn't a 44, rather a five-shot 357, for compatibility's sake with my 357 carbine fixation. What I'm saying is - the design is worth putting some effort into to make it more like you like it. If I bought another adjustable-sighted one, I'd start eyeballing the possibility of fitting a Smith, J-Frame rear sight. A stainless, 5" 44 Special would be a neat hunting tool. I'm not being cheap - by doing this work myself - I like the design and don't see what I want in other makes. Prototype IWB, appendix-carry (NO, I wouldn't do this with a newfangled "safe-action" pistol) for the 3" Mag Pug. The full-underlug needs to GO! I need more room for my femoral artery to keep working and the tapered barrels allowed me to make holsters tapered too so that it was more comfortable.
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Post by reflex264 on May 25, 2023 10:43:51 GMT -5
We just need to get Mr. Ecker to let us design one trail gun and one carry gun, and still keep the things we like about them. I too have been thinking about fitting a S&W sight to one. I actually told them about two years ago they needed to let me design one. Instead of calling it a bulldog we would call it the "Hunting Dog" or something to that effect. The 5" barrel works great. A good set of sights and grips and a bit of refinement. That 4" gun I posted the pic of got all kinds of attention on social media. It was only partially my idea. Mr. Taffin did an article about his Charters that he modified. I got him to email some pics of the guns. I immediately started making changes and ended up loving that gun. They have so much potential to build a better mouse trap. Now I still need to find a 6" .357 Bulldog Tracker. Before and after...   |
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Post by bigbore5 on May 25, 2023 12:41:09 GMT -5
I like to mess with guns and do metal work for a living.
Since my Missus claimed the 44 Bulldog Target I just bought before it even got shipped, I think I will find another to play with.
1. Half lug the barrel
2. Correct the top strap to barrel rib transition.
3. Polish internals.
4. Address the rear sight (j-frame?)
5. Custom grips
6. Nice satin finish.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,744
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Post by jeffh on May 25, 2023 13:56:54 GMT -5
I like to mess with guns and do metal work for a living. Since my Missus claimed the 44 Bulldog Target I just bought before it even got shipped, I think I will find another to play with. 1. Half lug the barrel 2. Correct the top strap to barrel rib transition. 3. Polish internals. 4. Address the rear sight (j-frame?) 5. Custom grips 6. Nice satin finish.
That sounds like a good project and that list hits points I'd want to improve on as well.
Not being a metal-worker, the under-lug would be another of those long, involved, drill-press, hacksaw, file endeavors I kick myself for every time I do it. BUT, I really thing I need to do it. I've not seen a 3" tapered .35 cal barrel, let alone one in stainless, so I suppose...
Same for the rib, which I can't believe doesn't bug the crap out of the people putting them together. Being careful not to criticize, because they're selling bunches of these things, THAT part really bugs me.
Polishing inside - no sweat. Charter parts seem to be through-hardened, which makes cleaning them up less worrying. I just don't know about the MIM parts others use now, whether they are surface-hardened or not. Don't know if you could re-carburize them if you did stone something either. If you mess up, or just don't have enough to work with on a Charter part, everything inside (as far as I know to date) interchanges, is still available as a replacement part, for cheap, from Charter. Baffles me that people pay way too much for "vintage" Charter parts on eBay, when they could order new ones from Charter.
Rear sight - I'd love to see a J-Frame sight mated to one of these. I had it done to a 3" SP101 several years ago, but don't have it any more, so don't have a sight to measure.
Those rubber grips on Charters are nothing short of awful - at least for me. They do sell another ugly, black rubber grip with an exposed back-strap, which is tempting, but I did the same with a set of their walnut "Back Packer" grips. I removed a LOT of wood from those panels. Not a lot of aftermarket options on them either.
Nice, satin finish,... My most recent Charter came as "High-Polish" model, a special of some sort. Man, is it BRIGHT and SHINY! No sweat, I thought. I'll just take a Scotch-Brite pad to it, like my Rugers and,... Yeah 0 NO! That stiff is HARD! It too EFFORT, with 220 grit just to dampen the effect on the top of the barrel rib. I called Charter and asked if it was maybe really chromed, instead of stainless, as advertised. "Nope, it's really stainless," says the nice lady. I have not summoned up the ambition to tone down the rest of the little gun just yet, but it will be a chore.
Here's a tip I probably shouldn't share, because that would induce competition, but what the heck, I have a soft spot for people who appreciate Charters; both of the 3" stainless Bulldogs I had (Bridgeport production, I believe) came with stainless grip-frames. Most people I've told this didn't believe me anyway, so there's that, but when I went looking for one, the first gunsmith I talked to told me to look for a stainless one, because the grip frames were stainless. This was in 1982. They WERE! At least the ones being made at that moment. Sold them both at times when I was transitioning from steady employment situations to uncertain excursions. In both instances, I was switching to the 357 to conserve lead and source much cheaper brass. Mistake on both counts.
To be fair, and to be honest, I've done as much (or more) work on any Ruger DA (besides the LCRX) that I've bought new or used as I have with Charters. Probably more. That's not a slight on Ruger, but to clarify that Charters aren't necessarily "projects" when purchased new - at least no more than any other revolver I've bought.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
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Post by jeffh on May 25, 2023 13:59:29 GMT -5
I love this photo!
If I remember this correctly, this wasn't a "fish-in-a-barrel" encounter either - more like you HAD to shoot the hog or the hog was going to mess you up.
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Post by reflex264 on May 25, 2023 14:30:26 GMT -5
I love this photo! If I remember this correctly, this wasn't a "fish-in-a-barrel" encounter either - more like you HAD to shoot the hog or the hog was going to mess you up.
It got real quick. I am probably lucky I didn't end up with stiches at the least. This is why we practice. It happened so fast that the hunted changed to hunter in about 10 seconds. It has been a while but I remember it vividly. |
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Post by needsmostuff on May 25, 2023 14:46:35 GMT -5
I think I will find another to play with. 1. Half lug the barrel 2. Correct the top strap to barrel rib transition. 3. Polish internals. 4. Address the rear sight (j-frame?) 5. Custom grips 6. Nice satin finish. While not a 44 here is one with some of that stuff done. Nothing fancy, just stuff to make it more shootable. Top lug lowered to blend better but left enough for a dovetail front sight. Bottom lug tapered (much easier than a standard half lug). Finish somewhat tidied up with grey scuff pad. Improved but not perfect by any means. I have been inside this gun but it did not really need much.  |
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