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Post by cas on Feb 9, 2023 20:25:57 GMT -5
One I always think of in the .375 Express and 375 JDJ. The Express is 0.0200 shorter than the 375 JDJ, and with a 28 degree vs 23 degree shoulder. No idea which came first.
Not saying either was stolen, different people come up with the same idea all the time. Probably far more often than we realize and hear about.
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Post by Encore64 on Feb 10, 2023 6:25:54 GMT -5
That's always one of the best examples of "Stolen" Cartridges.
Ken Waters' 375 Express was first by a number of years.
I know the original magazine article was used by a defendant who was chambering for the 375x444 Marlin. The plaintiff accused him of stealing his idea, but the defendant proved the plaintiff didn't originate the idea. It never made it to court.
Most of the Proprietary TC Cartridges mimicked P.O. Ackley's Work. Just enough variation to say it was the manufacturer's design.
It's always funny to hear someone say necking a 243 Winchester up to 25 Caliber is different than necking a 308 Winchester down to 25 Caliber.
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aciera
.375 Atomic
Posts: 2,187
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Post by aciera on Feb 10, 2023 16:38:34 GMT -5
Like necking up the 7mm-08 to 30 cal…….
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cdf41
.30 Stingray
Posts: 465
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Post by cdf41 on Feb 11, 2023 14:14:32 GMT -5
I agree with JT , the only one that was really stolen was the 300 Whisper. I think Gary is comparing the 350 Legend to the 357 Max.
I have heard of the 44 GPC from Mike Bellms newsletters. Seems pretty neat can be rimless or rimmed. 30-06 or 308 brass for rimless, 444 Marlin or 356 Win brass for rimmed. Of course all trimmed to 1.8 inches. Guess you could almost call it a 430 Bushamster lol.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Feb 11, 2023 14:47:41 GMT -5
But was it?? Or did the Whisper spring from the 300 Apache?!?!
Trapr
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Post by Encore64 on Feb 11, 2023 15:10:04 GMT -5
It's definitely enough to give a guy a headache.
The 204 Ruger is based on the old 222 Rem Mag. It was necked to every conceivable bullet diameter that would still allow headspace. Only factory offering I'm aware of was the 257 Kimber. There was the 6x47mm and a host of others.
Now, somehow magically, the same being done on the 204 Ruger Case is original?
The 222 Remington was necked up to create the 25 Copperhead.
I've just never had the insight to understand how running an existing cartridge over an expander was inventing anything.
Sure, some of this is great ideas and prove to be successful. Some ideas catch on, others don't.
I've always appreciated the wildcatters and the cartridges they dream up. Just not always the rhetoric that goes with the territory...
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cdf41
.30 Stingray
Posts: 465
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Post by cdf41 on Feb 11, 2023 16:05:39 GMT -5
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Post by Encore64 on Feb 11, 2023 16:17:04 GMT -5
It's STOLEN!!!! The 44 DMax is a 444 Marlin cut to 1.8". Like others have said, two people had the same idea and probably never heard of the other one...
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cdf41
.30 Stingray
Posts: 465
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Post by cdf41 on Feb 11, 2023 16:25:18 GMT -5
nothing new under the sun!
I wouldn't mind having the rimless version in a 16 or 18 inch barreled bolt action.
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aciera
.375 Atomic
Posts: 2,187
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Post by aciera on Feb 11, 2023 17:53:54 GMT -5
nothing new under the sun! I wouldn't mind having the rimless version in a 16 or 18 inch barreled bolt action. A 40 cal in the CZ 527 and I’m happy.
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Post by hounddogman on Feb 12, 2023 13:05:45 GMT -5
While I agree that it is hard to claim ownership on a few slight manipulations on a piece of brass, when I think about stolen designs what happened to Rick Jamison with the WSM cartridges by Winchester comes to mind.
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Post by x101airborne on Feb 14, 2023 8:14:25 GMT -5
I wanted a stretched 41 magnum cartridge for Marlin Rifles that would still use 41 magnum as a "short". I used cut 303 brass, expanders and sizing dies from many different sets. Took it to a guy who took it apart and put the capacity and desired velocity, pressure, etc. through the computer. The result? The 40 caliber Henry black powder cartridge from 1890 or so. There really is not much new under the sun. Just because we dont know about it doesn't mean it isn't there!
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Post by Encore64 on Feb 14, 2023 8:27:06 GMT -5
It's always been something that piqued my interest.
The Wildcatters, TC Barrel Builders, etc all chamber for Remington, Winchester, Hornady, Ruger, etc line of cartridges. They also depend 100% on these very manufacturers to provide brass for "their" cartridges.
But, the minute one of the manufacturers chamber for one of "their" cartridges, the story changes. This carries over even if the cartridge is simply improved in one of the many configurations.
Remember the 300 and 375 Weatherby are simply the 300 and 375 H&Hs Improved. H&H had the first ever belted brass. Does this mean all the belted magnums are stolen?
Of course, this is all about the bucks. Hobbyist gladly share information and consider it a compliment to be copied.
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Post by magnumwheelman on Feb 14, 2023 8:51:32 GMT -5
Jumping into this late, & may have been said, but there were numerous cartridges chambered for the TC Contender, that turned out to be perfect for the AR platform, many names were given to identical, or near identical cartridges years later, as the AR platform grew & the 223 wasn't the only cartridge for the gun just as an example, near & dear to me... as this country was in a component shortage ( one of many ) this one, several presidents ago, I was trying to find an efficient cartridge, & settled on trying to duplicate 22LR / 22 Rimfire mag, only in a center fire version I could use components I had stock piled ( no rimfire ammo was to be had at this time ) we started with converting a Taurus 8 shot 22 Magnum ( because I already had it, & it was cheap, if the project went no where ) we even machined about 50 steel cases that would fit in the chambers & that had primer pockets, also made custom dies... it worked great... so we called it 22 Mag RF... but turned out it was the same, as the Cooper Centerfire Magnum, an obsolete rifle cartridge for the Cooper rifles so chambered... as I went further down that rabbit hole, turns out one of the makers of 22 CCM ammo, was using Fiocchi cases... turns out Fiocchi had made a run of 22 Velo-dog, in the late 60's or 70's, maybe into the 80's & the case was also the same as all above... I bought a box of the Fiocchi Velo-dog ammo, & it fire perfectly in my 1st custom ( for the whole story, many of the cases cracked... but that turned out to be caused by galvanic corrosion between the bullet & the case, on ammo that was 25-30 years old... pulling the bullets & reloading them as 22 CCM, solved the problems )... 3 cartridge names the same dimensions... over the span of a 100 years to me, using the word "stolen" implies that someone else started making something while another was still in the process... if the cartridge never caught on, or the developer ran out of funds or enthusiasm... fair game... nothing new
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