|
|
Post by Encore64 on Feb 9, 2023 14:41:21 GMT -5
For my 40+ years of being a gun hobbyist, I've read accusations about "Stolen" Cartridges. I just read a similar post about the 350 Legend being a "Stolen" Cartridge.
As many times as I've read this, I still don't get it.
My dad always said there was nothing new following the 8x57 Mauser. It's hard to argue that point.
For instance, the 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38 Special, 357 Mag, 360 DW and 357 Max are all basically the same except for case length. Does that mean lengthening or shortening a case is stealing? Seems more modifying to me.
Sticking an existing case in an improved chamber for fire forming, is that stealing from the original dimensions or simply modifying an existing case? I've seen the 30-30 fire formed with 30° and 40° shoulders with varying neck lengths. Are all these ideas stealing from P.O. Ackley?
I realize work goes into all this. But, it seems the definition of "Stolen" Cartridges is manipulated too much.
This stuff goes back a long ways too. The 38-55 Winchester was actually a Ballard Rifle Cartridge. The 275 Rigby is the exact same cartridge as the 7x57 Mauser.
The 45x2.1" Sharps is a 45-70, etc.
It's hard for me to wrap my head around all this stuff.
Where do we draw the line?
|
|
|
|
Post by squigz on Feb 9, 2023 15:00:28 GMT -5
Where do we draw the line? When the 5 minutes of fame doesn't get you on the front page anymore. Someone always feels the need to complain about something to get some level of validation and attention.. There's been so many "new" things over how ever many years, there's not a ton of "originality" to something, because as you said everything is basically a modification of something that is already existing in some way or another. |
|
Odin
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,034
|
Post by Odin on Feb 9, 2023 15:49:14 GMT -5
...My dad always said there was nothing new following the 8x57 Mauser. It's hard to argue that point... George Nonte said essentially the same in his book Handloading for Handgunners. It got me thinking... neck up, neck down, shorten, lengthen, boost pressure... there is truly nothing new under the sun. For the handgunner one simply needs to choose their desired caliber, bullet weight and velocity and then go search out the cartridge that will get them there. |
|
|
|
Post by Randominator on Feb 9, 2023 16:40:40 GMT -5
I don’t know why Gary thinks that the 350 Legend was stolen.
|
|
|
|
Post by Encore64 on Feb 9, 2023 17:16:28 GMT -5
I don’t know why Gary thinks that the 350 Legend was stolen. Well, that wasn't the basis for my post. I was reading up on the 400 Legend and how similar it was to the 401 Winchester. In turn, the 350 Legend was compared to the 351 Winchester, etc. |
|
|
|
Post by taffin on Feb 9, 2023 17:23:38 GMT -5
The .300 Blackout was stolen--it is JD's .300 Whisper.
|
|
|
|
Post by potatojudge on Feb 9, 2023 17:57:25 GMT -5
There's stolen then there's stolen. Similarities and circumstances matter. I don't think the argument that modern cartridges are rooted in the 8 Mauser tells the whole tale. Gotta go case by case, look at intent and design, commercialization, financial or professional harm, then decide. If stolen, decide if you're willing to financially support the thief.
|
|
|
|
Post by Encore64 on Feb 9, 2023 18:04:42 GMT -5
I'm not on either side. I've shot JDJ, GNR, etc Wildcats for decades. I get it.
I know you can register a name, but not dimensions.
I'm just curious where the line is on stolen? I have a Remington 788 in 30-30 Win. Did Remington steal the cartridge from Winchester?
If "Winchester" on the cartridge name, then is that different from any other name? How?
The British refused anything Nazi. So, the 7x57 was renamed 275 Rigby. I have a Ruger #1 in 275 Rigby, but don't consider myself or Ruger theives.
|
|
|
|
Post by Encore64 on Feb 9, 2023 18:16:37 GMT -5
I do believe a good idea keeps coming back.
375 Win very similar to 38-55...
350 Legend very similar to 351 Win...
400 Legend very similar to 401 Win, etc
I don't believe any of this constitutes theft...
|
|
norfok
.240 Incinerator
Real Guns, Real Loads.
Posts: 72
|
Post by norfok on Feb 9, 2023 18:30:18 GMT -5
.429 Desert Eagle was stolen it's .440 CorBon.
|
|
aciera
.375 Atomic
Posts: 2,187
|
Post by aciera on Feb 9, 2023 18:33:26 GMT -5
7mm STW. Not much different than the 7mm 300 Weathersby done in the 50s.
But somebody got to put their name on it.
Someone else did all the work.
|
|
Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,631
|
Post by Fowler on Feb 9, 2023 19:32:50 GMT -5
To me stolen is something much more blunt, when the 300 Whisper was stolen from SSK industries and made into the 300BO because a different company was willing to spend the money to have the SAAMI spec filed…
There hasn’t been many new cartridges in years, when John Linebaugh came up with his 500 and 475 Linebaughs it was pretty original because it was entirely new cartridges. But most just refinements of other cartridges that do the same thing I think.
|
|
|
|
Post by squawberryman on Feb 9, 2023 19:54:18 GMT -5
Solomon too said there is nothing new under the sun.
|
|
|
|
Post by bigbrowndog on Feb 9, 2023 19:56:30 GMT -5
Somewhat on the topic,…Way back in the early 2000’s, I came up with a stroke shortening system for the Benelli Nova, it operates on a 3.5” stroke. I retimed the system to operate only utilizing enough stroke for a 2.75” round. But, I chose not to patent the idea because it was so simple I could easily see where someone with good mechanical aptitude could come up with the idea on their own without ever knowing they were “copying” my system. I was the first person to refer to the stroke mod as a retiming of the system, most folks attempting to shorten the stroke were trying to cut arms in order to shorten the stroke of the gun, that mod didn’t work because it didn’t take into consideration the entire system. Today there are at least two firms doing stroke system shortening to Benelli Novas and SuperNovas, both were claiming to be the originators of the concept. Looking at their design it was obvious that it was a duplicate of mine, but both claimed to have never seen or heard of my design. We’re they lying, maybe, I instructed them simply not claim to be the originators as I had drawings, video footage, and plans dated years before they had brought out their products. Both were good with my terms and there were no hard feelings. Do I feel like they “stole” my idea, no because it was simplicity of design and could easily have been a parallel idea or piece of work without ever seeing my design.
Trapr
|
|
|
|
Post by Encore64 on Feb 9, 2023 20:00:19 GMT -5
To me stolen is something much more blunt, when the 300 Whisper was stolen from SSK industries and made into the 300BO because a different company was willing to spend the money to have the SAAMI spec filed… There hasn’t been many new cartridges in years, when John Linebaugh came up with his 500 and 475 Linebaughs it was pretty original because it was entirely new cartridges. But most just refinements of other cartridges that do the same thing I think. This is a very good and clear definition. BTW, that's the way I lean as well. Like when A-Square did the same with the well established 338-06. Also, Potatojudge made some excellent points. Some things are simply case by case. I've read so many different views on this. So, I wanted to hear from forum members about their views. |
|
