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Post by pacecars on Dec 3, 2022 19:39:28 GMT -5
I was perusing another forum and I came across an ad for a Cooper in .257 Wby, and the author claimed “it shoots 1/4 to 1/2 MOA with boring regularity” and then states it had less than 20 rounds through it. Now even if you got lucky on the bore sighting and had it zeroed in one shot that would leave you 18 rds at the most since he said less than 20 rounds were fired. How could that be considered “boring regularity?”
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Post by sixshot on Dec 3, 2022 19:48:31 GMT -5
Maybe he's including the Cooper test target that they include but most places do all of their testing at 50 yds & that's a convenience thing. Might be wrong.
Dick
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Post by bigbrowndog on Dec 3, 2022 19:59:03 GMT -5
I always love it when MOA is used to describe accuracy potential or performance, I recall a gunsmith saying he guaranteed 1/2moa from his rifles, when I asked if it mattered who did the shooting his reply was “when I shoot it” then I asked so if he can’t get a 2.5” group at 500 yards I get a new rifle??………he quickly stopped making that boast using the term MOA.
Trapr
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Post by bigbore5 on Dec 3, 2022 20:06:02 GMT -5
If it's a Cooper, it'll shoot 1/2" with loads it likes. Part of their old accuracy guarantee. I've had a few and all were more capable than I am.
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Post by zeus on Dec 3, 2022 21:08:30 GMT -5
That sad truth is most rifle will outshoot their owners abilities🤣
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aciera
.375 Atomic
Posts: 2,186
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Post by aciera on Dec 3, 2022 22:19:46 GMT -5
That sad truth is most rifle will outshoot their owners abilities🤣 Quoted to me “Rob, there are more 1/2” rifles than 1/2” shooters “
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Post by junebug on Dec 3, 2022 22:42:56 GMT -5
My friend bought a Legendary Arms 280 AI with a 1 moa guarantee but no matter what we tried it would not do under 1 3/4 to 2 in @ 100 and we tried a lot of bullet powder combinations. It was sent back to them where they opened up the brake, re bedded the action and fixed the safety. Their returned target was a 3/4 in group with 280 Federal ammo. When asked about this they replied that was what it shot best and it met there accuracy standard. My friend replied if I had wanted a 280 I would have bought one, I bought a 280 AI and that is what I want it to shoot. They stood behind there 3/4 in group with the 280 Federal load saying that it met there accuracy standards. Never could get it to shoot 280 AI loads that well.
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,631
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Post by Fowler on Dec 3, 2022 22:58:05 GMT -5
I know the guy at Black Canyon Customs who makes high end long range rifles these days. They have a 1/2” MOA guarantee and most of his guns shoot a lot better than that.
Had one client return his gun twice because it wouldn’t shoot 2” groups. He went through it each time and test fired a couple tiny groups with it before returning it to the customer. Finally the third time the guy wanted to return it he said let’s go shoot together. In about 30 seconds the answer to the problem became obvious, they guys shooting technique and flinch were horrid. An hours worth of work and a box of shells later he was shooting 1” groups from field positions.
If we are honest very few people have the skill to even scratch the surface of a guns capabilities.
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Post by potatojudge on Dec 4, 2022 0:59:57 GMT -5
You are right, you can’t statistically demonstrate a level of accuracy with that few shots.
Barrels settle in after 100-150 rounds and that’s where you’ll find a steady state to determine what the rifle is capable of on a meaningful, consistent basis.
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Post by kevshell on Dec 4, 2022 1:34:35 GMT -5
Here's a test target that came with my Cooper 300 Win Mag. I easily put 150 rounds down the tube before I found a load I was happy with. I was not happy initially but part of it was making those Accubonds shoot in that rifle. I wasn't getting anywhere close to that target. Ultimately I learned the rifle/bullets needed a jump, not seated close to the lands. The nice thing is the Cooper mags are long and don't limit seating depth. That said I ended up buying my wife one too because I really ended up liking it. I live in NC and my longest range that I have access to is 200 yards. When we go to Montana elk hunting that 200 yard range seems like nothing when you're in big sky country. But my wife got her elk at 430 yards last year. But I'll agree the limiting factor behind most rifles is not the equipment. It's the individual attached to the booger hook on the trigger. I have good days and some not as good. Unless you're a bench rest or long range competitor I highly doubt the rifle is shooting tiny groups with boring regularity. There are lots of factors that play into small groups - good ammo, good rifle, consistent trigger pull, wind, weather, face positioning, stock pressure, etc., etc.
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Post by sixshot on Dec 4, 2022 3:24:08 GMT -5
Truth is, a lot of rifles will shoot into an inch with good ammo but many shooters can't do it, even with quality equipment. My late buddy Duayne had maybe 10-12 Cooper rifles before he passed away & the first 2-3 he bought were not up to par according to him. But as he got better, which took quite a while he found out that they were amazing rifles & so he kept buying them, all with the same serial number. And he started attending the annual Cooper Shoot held in Oregon. One year he even won it after attending several times, not sure if it was in Oregon or after they moved it to Montana but I know he was very proud because he beat some very fine shooters & he earned it the old fashion way, by pulling the trigger, thousands of times. His son now owns all of those fine Coopers & that exact target that all of them shot, showing Duayne as the winner. He also had one of the very few 221 FB Cooper handguns ever built, I sold it for him about a year before he died. Shooting itty, bitty groups isn't all that tough if you put in the work, shooting them at 1,000-1,500 yds is a whole lot tougher. Some guys, like my buddy Zeus & his son Gabriel go out even beyond 2,000 yds in competition & hit what they're shooting at, it's very impressive! I'll get to watch them in New Mexico.
Dick
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Post by zeus on Dec 5, 2022 18:17:46 GMT -5
Truth is, a lot of rifles will shoot into an inch with good ammo but many shooters can't do it, even with quality equipment. My late buddy Duayne had maybe 10-12 Cooper rifles before he passed away & the first 2-3 he bought were not up to par according to him. But as he got better, which took quite a while he found out that they were amazing rifles & so he kept buying them, all with the same serial number. And he started attending the annual Cooper Shoot held in Oregon. One year he even won it after attending several times, not sure if it was in Oregon or after they moved it to Montana but I know he was very proud because he beat some very fine shooters & he earned it the old fashion way, by pulling the trigger, thousands of times. His son now owns all of those fine Coopers & that exact target that all of them shot, showing Duayne as the winner. He also had one of the very few 221 FB Cooper handguns ever built, I sold it for him about a year before he died. Shooting itty, bitty groups isn't all that tough if you put in the work, shooting them at 1,000-1,500 yds is a whole lot tougher. Some guys, like my buddy Zeus & his son Gabriel go out even beyond 2,000 yds in competition & hit what they're shooting at, it's very impressive! I'll get to watch them in New Mexico. Dick That will be fun Dick. I believe we stop about 2900yds at that match. I can’t remember. But you’ll like it. we will have some extras for you to launch one or two when we are done 😉
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Post by pacecars on Dec 5, 2022 20:40:56 GMT -5
I had a Cooper .22 LR and those suckers will shoot. I am a Shiloh Sharps fanatic and and while mine are all for hunting and most of my target shooting with them is just to improve my hunting loads but I do have several friends that are serious competition shooters with them and their accuracy is scary with iron sights and black powder (my Shilohs have never seen a smokeless load or copper bullet from me)
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Post by longoval on Dec 9, 2022 13:42:07 GMT -5
There seems to be some kind of unwritten rule that governs all gun forums. The rules states that as long as you include the disclaimer "as long as I do my part", you get to claim any sort of accuracy you want for a given firearm.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,730
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Post by jeffh on Dec 9, 2022 15:06:02 GMT -5
I was perusing another forum and I came across an ad for a Cooper in .257 Wby, and the author claimed “it shoots 1/4 to 1/2 MOA with boring regularity” and then states it had less than 20 rounds through it. Now even if you got lucky on the bore sighting and had it zeroed in one shot that would leave you 18 rds at the most since he said less than 20 rounds were fired. How could that be considered “boring regularity?” Years ago, I frequented several sites where knives were either the man topic or the main tool associated with the site-specific topic.
There were very many who would post emphatic claims regarding how superior THEIR choice in a $400, XYZ "survival knife" was compared to any obviously inferior knife anyone else chose. There was a distinct and unescapable undertone in their message that their choice made them intellectually superior to people who did not chose the knife they chose. The claims were outrageous, such as being able to dig a fox-hole with the knife, puncture the hood of a late-seventies GMC pickup, cleave concrete blocks and STILL "shave hair off my arm." Well, maybe, with some small section of the edge you didn't manage to just ruin. Anyone with THIS knife would live through any situation and anyone who did NOT choose this knife was a fool destined to die overnight, with no precipitation and mid-fifties temps.
Yet.... the knife (and sheath) in the photos they posted was always PRISTINE, unused, impeccably clean and very obviously never sharpened. This wonder-knife, capable of all things, was also always posted with "props," like an expensive, big-name pack, gimmicky boonie hat, clean fingerless "tactical gloves," several hanks of (new/unused) paracord, etc. This wonder-knife was usually posted up for sale months later, when the next latest-greatest thing came out, and invariably was advertised as "never carried," "never sharpened," "with box and papers," etc.
If they never USED the thing, how could they possibly know how great it was?
Twenty rounds isn't enough to get bored with, let alone enough to constitute sufficient data to even make a loose claim.
Then again, my standards are low. Many insist that five-shot groups or even ten-shot groups, in multiples of ten demonstrate accuracy. That may well be, but it doesn't matter to me.
I've no more needed to shave my arm in a "survival situation" (or ever) than I've truly needed a gun that shoots "XX MOA" by any standard. If I can hit what I aim at, whenever I pick that gun up, it's "accurate" by MY standard, so maybe I have no room to criticize someone for getting bored after a box of ammo. For what a box of THAT ammo costs today, I'm not sure I could get bored with it, regardless of how few shots I made with it.
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