45 Colt 255gr SWC for Deer

[sixshot]

Bob, I truly love your cast bullet designs & I've said it several times before but good solids in the 41, 44 & 45 are extremely effective bullets on big game & I've seldom ever tracked an animal farther than the length of my house & that includes some very large animals.
The cow elk in the snow in the photo's above, I've showed it before was taken with a 3 screw, brass framed 45 Colt at 168 yds, my late buddy shooting her with the range finder. She didn't cover 40-50 yds & there was blood everywhere on the snow.
The bear in the above photo's was taken with one of my 10" 44 Ruger's at 85-90 yds I think, with a 250 gr Keith, did a back flip, rolled down the hill a ways & was dead, no tracking just a great day on the mountain.
My Zebra in Africa taken with the 45 bisley & a solid through both lungs never took a step & they are known to be very hard to kill. Some of the guys in camp shot there's multiple times with rifles & still chased them for a mile or more. My Cape Buffalo, I knocked down twice with the 45 Colt using solids & it never moved 10' total & it was over. I probably have at least 5 maybe 6 kills with the 357 Maximum with solids & they never went 10-15 yds. I've also taken about that many with your HP & they've done the same thing, excellent results. One was 123 yds, and I have that one on video, it probably didn't go 5 feet. Shot it facing me straight on. I have one kill with the Maximum at about 180 yds & one over 220 yds, deer hardly moved, and both taken with solids.
And tracking in Africa is every bit as difficult as it is in Texas, I've done both. Twice in Africa & 4 years in Texas.

Dick

[jack]

Oct 11, 2022 9:22:13 GMT -5 boolitdesigner said:

Oct 11, 2022 1:25:03 GMT -5 2 Dogs said:

I might also mention these days I shoot the least hard bullet my barrel will tolerate. Don't you just love it when people get it right. I like savage expansion with precision placement Again. you got it going good. and I don’t deny being a dick about it. My phone number is all over the internet and I’m happy to explain to you my thoughts. I should mention that my deer, my terrain, my hunting conditions are far different than my dear friend Bob and thankfully for us he is willing to listen and design bullets for our individual needs. These folks that refer to someone's tracking abilities really need to try it here.... you can't see tracks or where you have just walked.... no sign of it at all. Try it guys and see for yourself. Myself, I prefer the animal to go straight down or just tip over. My HP designs allow for that when loaded properly and that is all that needs to be said.

Now, don't get me wrong - I like and have a number of your bullet designs in several caliber and have used them extensively in the last few years on whitetails and hogs mostly with the large HP pins. I have loaded them for my brother, son, nephew, father-in-law, and a co-worker. I too load with the softest alloys reasonable for the job, I test bullets extensively. Between us we probably can count in the neighborhood of 35-40 critters. NOT THE BIGGEST statistical sample but not an insignificant thing either. 

I have this to say on this topic:

1. I know nothing nor care anything about your tracking skills. 

2. I do know we have pretty seriously big deer here, and the tracking can be abominable at times without snow.

3. My experiences with the solid flat nose slugs just does not jive with yours and probably shows the futility of arguing based on small statistical samples.

4. That said - we have had exactly ZERO bang flop DRT kills at this point, with your designs. Several deer have traveled 75-100 yds with lung shots, others have dropped in 15-20. Bone hits add damage but still have allowed running. We have had no trouble locating ANY of them ( And we have had little to no trouble finding those deer properly hit with flat nose solids (SWC etc)

5. This is most important: I seriously distrust ANYONE that tells me that they designed a bullet, and cartridge, or any combination thereof  SPECIFICALLY to cause bang flop kills. NO AMOUNT OF ENGINEERING is going to create that. You cannot control the reactions of critters to the shot. There are so many variables from small deer under calm conditions to adrenalized bucks that have been chased for days. Not to  mention the fact ALL CRITTERS can and will take an incredible poundings at times and appear to shrug it off. Then there are the factors of WHERE in the shoulder is a hit, top or bottom of heart/blood vessels, inhaling or exhaling, and a thousand thousand other variables. CLAIMING that a bullet or cartridge is designed to always bang flop a deer is risking convincing people NOT TO LOOK if the deer runs off. After all WHY SHOULD they, you just put in print that your bullets knock them over right there  - they are designed to. Shame.


 

[boolitdesigner]

Dick.... I'm not arguing that your method or your solids don't work. They do get more animal to go thru to work on though since a lot of what you shoot is bigger and thicker. That increases their effectiveness. Smaller animals have less to go thru with less energy transferred where it does the most good. Our large game is deer in which you can have an 80 to 300+ pound animal. Shoot it with a solid and it doesn't show that it gets a lot of energy transferred to it compared to shooting it with a hollow point (that acts like a Nosler Partisan) that does show it gets a lot more energy into it... By actual observation and an autopsy. The show and tell is quite obvious when you done a whole lot of it. Our terrain is different also.. we have Oak forests which carpet the ground with 4" and more of dry leaves which don't show a trail unless you drag your feet or something else thru it. You sure can't track a deer even though you know where it just went in these places. There valleys have sand and loam soils where tracks show up in that the hills are clay, but you have to know that the tracks you see are the deer you shot. A deer can disappear within 70 yards here and there are a lot of deer. I prefer to drop the deer instead of trying to figure out just where it went..... that's why I use hollow points I've designed... I know they work thru a lot of kills with them.

[boolitdesigner]

OK Jack... note the times and posting order on the above two posts. I can't agree with you either because I've tried those big flat nosed slugs and got squat for effectiveness out of them. Different alloys, loads, where you shoot them between us. It goes to show how different people do things. I've posted my alloy and other pertinent things before. For me it happens like I said... for you it happens like you said. I can't load your cartridges or shoot your deer, you have to find a way that works for you. Good Luck on that....

[boolitdesigner]

As far as design, I do things a little differently than most people. Deer have a limited window of opportunity in which the bullet can effect them. That is basically inside their rib cage. You all notice that most of my hollow points have three HP pins. Not knowing what alloy you use, those are there so you can tailor the bullet to get what you want. I only want the large pin and won't use the other two. I want expansion inside the ribs. Whatever the HP walls do there has to transfer energy RIGHT NOW inside the rib cage. The base below the bottom of the HP is left and it sails out the far side. I don't get recovered bullets usually. I have autopsied a whole lot of deer and other animals to see what bullets actually do. There is a lot more to design than most everybody here thinks there is.

[pws]

Boolitdesigner, thank you for continuing the discussion.

To clarify my position, my main point is that anything will work if the wound is in the right spot. Obviously, that can be argued to absurdity but a .45 cal 255grain bullet at 900fps mv is far from absurd for most situations. Don’t expect DRT but most often you’ll get a followable blood trail.

FWIW, the vast majority of my hunting is roaming so most of my shots are not ribcage first. I’ve tried hollow points, two-part soft nosed, and even paper patched SOFT lead. I didn’t see enough of a difference between the types to matter and ultimately, an LBT style flat nose gives me sufficient terminal performance with the best, consistent accuracy.

I’m not a fan of SWCs since they tend not to produce the accuracy I want. They also tend to produce smaller wounds. They do penetrate like a rock drill and if used with prudence, will reliably kill just about anything.

If I was in your situation, hunting robust deer in Midwest forests and likely from a stand shooting an unaltered animal, I’d be doing exactly what you suggest. But, I rarely get good angles, often have snow, and prefer a load that’ll make an acceptably wide wound as deep as possible.

Again, thank you for the additional information. Mark Hampton has stated in print that he prefers JHPs for most light/medium game. Nathan Foster in New Zealand (who is a terminal ballistics fanatic) argues strenuously for soft bullets particularly for long range, low energy rifle shots and I believe the three of you are right. But, we’re discussing refinements and my first post on this thread was intended to focus on how well the shooter can place their shots. Anything will kill in the right spot - first priority. Once that is addressed, there’s no question, given similar POIs, that some bullets and loads will kill better than others- and often significantly so.

[sixshot]

Sorry, I made an oopsy on my Zebra, I used one of Bob's excellent HP's on it, not a solid as mentioned above. I did used solids on the Cape Buffalo with the 45 bisley & with my 41 Freedom Arms on my Gemsbok, it went straight down, not a single step. Also one of my Warthogs on an earlier trip was with a solid & ran made 10 yds.
The thing I've always liked & demanded from solids are, there is no such thing as a bad angle, I shoot an animal from any angle just as long as the vitals are lined up at the end of bullet travel & I'll say it again, I can't recall any animal in well over 100 that's ever gone over 50 yds, few even got out of sight.
But I've also said for over 50 years that I've always shot my alloy as soft as I could & still maintained accuracy. I also stated above that I've taken many deer & 4-5 antelope in Wyoming & Utah with the 357 Maximum using solids. They are small, much like many white tails & are very easy to shoot through. The deer have been absolutely crunched by the 357 solids, mostly Keith bullets with knock down within 20-30 yds & the Montana white tail on video didn't go anywhere but in a 5 foot circle, this from 123 yds.
When using solids & making the high shoulder shot like I do on many animals such as Kudu, Nyla, elk, some deer, bears, etc. it never kills them, at least not instantly, but it always anchors them, you then have to finish the job when you walk up but the high shoulder shot is deadly if you have enough bullet, few HP's even come close.
I really like the HP's & prefer them on deer size game but I've taken many, many dozens of animals with solids & they've never failed me, those are lifetime facts. Oh, my Lion was shot at 5 feet & fell 20 feet, 357 magnum & a Keith solid. Dead when it hit the ground.

Dick

[45MAN]

PERSONALLY, I HAVE PURPOSELY SHIED AWAY FROM HOLLOW POINT BULLETS/SOFT POINT BULLETS, PREFERRING BULLET INTEGRITY. I WOULD RATHER KNOW WHAT MY BULLET WILL LOOK LIKE AFTER IT HITS AN ANIMAL BEFORE I SHOOT IT, RATHER THAN RELYING ON TOO MANY VARIABLES TO GET A NICE MUSHROOM. HAVING SAID THAT, I AM USING A 275gr HP PROVIDED BY SIXSHOT IN A 16" WINCHESTER 45 COLT SRC FOR A RIFLE ONLY DEER LEASE I AM ON THIS YEAR, BECAUSE IT SHOOTS GOOD OUT OF THE WINCHESTER, BUT IF I HAD SOME SOLID 275gr COATED SWC's I WOULD BE TRYING TO USE THEM.

SOLIDS/BULLET INTEGRITY IS WHAT I PREFER, AND SO FAR THAT CHOICE HAS SERVED ME WELL, ESPECIALLY IF I CAN DOUBLE SHOULDER 'em.

[2 Dogs]

Oct 11, 2022 19:35:55 GMT -5 45MAN said:

PERSONALLY, I HAVE PURPOSELY SHIED AWAY FROM HOLLOW POINT BULLETS/SOFT POINT BULLETS, PREFERRING BULLET INTEGRITY. I WOULD RATHER KNOW WHAT MY BULLET WILL LOOK LIKE AFTER IT HITS AN ANIMAL BEFORE I SHOOT IT, RATHER THAN RELYING ON TOO MANY VARIABLES TO GET A NICE MUSHROOM. HAVING SAID THAT, I AM USING A 275gr HP PROVIDED BY SIXSHOT IN A 16" WINCHESTER 45 COLT SRC FOR A RIFLE ONLY DEER LEASE I AM ON THIS YEAR, BECAUSE IT SHOOTS GOOD OUT OF THE WINCHESTER, BUT IF I HAD SOME SOLID 275gr COATED SWC's I WOULD BE TRYING TO USE THEM.

SOLIDS/BULLET INTEGRITY IS WHAT I PREFER, AND SO FAR THAT CHOICE HAS SERVED ME WELL, ESPECIALLY IF I CAN DOUBLE SHOULDER 'em.

Is that the Ruger Only cast slug? It gives fist size exits for us here in S Texas and the deer maybe make a step or two…

[pete]

Oct 11, 2022 0:08:26 GMT -5 pws said:

Perhaps what I should have said is that too many people pay too much attention on what their equipment can do and not enough attention on what they can do.

This says it all. While i haven't killed as much game as a lot of you, ive had great luck by holding fire if i dont know i can make a good hit, where i want to hit. Knowing animal anatomy, from different angles, is mandatory.

[45MAN]

Oct 11, 2022 19:49:43 GMT -5 2 Dogs said:

Oct 11, 2022 19:35:55 GMT -5 45MAN said:

PERSONALLY, I HAVE PURPOSELY SHIED AWAY FROM HOLLOW POINT BULLETS/SOFT POINT BULLETS, PREFERRING BULLET INTEGRITY. I WOULD RATHER KNOW WHAT MY BULLET WILL LOOK LIKE AFTER IT HITS AN ANIMAL BEFORE I SHOOT IT, RATHER THAN RELYING ON TOO MANY VARIABLES TO GET A NICE MUSHROOM. HAVING SAID THAT, I AM USING A 275gr HP PROVIDED BY SIXSHOT IN A 16" WINCHESTER 45 COLT SRC FOR A RIFLE ONLY DEER LEASE I AM ON THIS YEAR, BECAUSE IT SHOOTS GOOD OUT OF THE WINCHESTER, BUT IF I HAD SOME SOLID 275gr COATED SWC's I WOULD BE TRYING TO USE THEM.

SOLIDS/BULLET INTEGRITY IS WHAT I PREFER, AND SO FAR THAT CHOICE HAS SERVED ME WELL, ESPECIALLY IF I CAN DOUBLE SHOULDER 'em.

Is that the Ruger Only cast slug? It gives fist size exits for us here in S Texas and the deer maybe make a step or two…

DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS, I USE IT OVER 2400 IN A 10" CONTENDER, DOES LOW 1,300's OUT OF THE CONTENDER, I FIGURE IT WILL DO LOW 1,500's OUT OF THE WINCHESTER.

[kevshell]

If people put down Whitetail and Elk with a bow and arrow every year, I'm pretty confident that slug will do the trick. That flat point is more traumatic to the deer than an arrow.

[starmetal47]

Oct 12, 2022 9:51:56 GMT -5 kevshell said:

If people put down Whitetail and Elk with a bow and arrow every year, I'm pretty confident that slug will do the trick. That flat point is more traumatic to the deer than an arrow.

That is true what you say. I say shooting the deer with a bow and arrow is the easy part, tracking it is the harder part. 

[marlin35]

I know this is an older thread but I have been flipping through and re-reading as we get closer to deer season here in Arkansas. I recently recovered 3 MP Ruger Only bullets (small HP pin) from wet heavy clay. Penetration was 18-24” and the picture will show how the petals have sheared or nearly sheared leaving the remainder of the bullet base to continue travel. I found the petals at various points along the bullet path as I tracked down the base of the bullet. The weight of bullet bases left to right were as follows: 177gr, 176gr, and 227 gr.

[pete]

2 years ago I shot a doe about the size of the one Sixshot is kneeling with in his pictures. 75-80 yards with a 220gr flatness, over 35grs Goex 3f out of my Ruger old army. One and done, bullet went through about 16 inches of deer and she dropped in her tracks. You'll be fine, sounds like you know the load and your gun. Pics or it didn't happen