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Post by Encore64 on Jan 26, 2022 11:04:50 GMT -5
Hey, no problem and no misleading occurred. It's a great article...
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Post by Encore64 on Jan 26, 2022 15:02:13 GMT -5
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aciera
.375 Atomic
Posts: 2,211
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Post by aciera on Jan 26, 2022 17:02:00 GMT -5
Depends on how hard they make it.
For strength or toughness
Yes. Lots of factors.
But truth be told......you can make 410 a good bit harder than 17-4 .....about 5 points RC
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Post by Encore64 on Jan 26, 2022 17:35:48 GMT -5
Harder doesn't equate to stronger. I don't believe you can do anything to 410 to make it compare to 17-4 strength.
I've had this conversation with several machinist who specialize in this type of work. This is why Freedom Arms uses this steel.
Dave Clements, Ronnie Wells, Jack Huntington, etc have all validated this for strength too.
It's a choice like everything else. But, I've learned to listen to the top gunsmiths.
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aciera
.375 Atomic
Posts: 2,211
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Post by aciera on Jan 26, 2022 18:28:27 GMT -5
Harder doesn't equate to stronger. I don't believe you can do anything to 410 to make it compare to 17-4 strength. I've had this conversation with several machinist who specialize in this type of work. This is why Freedom Arms uses this steel. Dave Clements, Ronnie Wells, Jack Huntington, etc have all validated this for strength too. It's a choice like everything else. But, I've learned to listen to the top gunsmiths. Harder is stronger. But more brittle also. Softer is weaker. But tougher. Metal being the same. That is a fact. That was my point. 15 years of Aerospace R&D with specialty steels. I built vacuum furnaces for HT. And reported findings to the manufacturer..... 17-4 works a lot easier. And the HT is easier. I said that you can make 410 harder Than 17-4. You can. I did not say that would be a better cylinder did I. I’ve built a LOT of cylinders......for a good smith. 85% of what I made for a good number of years was destroyed for testing. Just sayin. |
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Post by Encore64 on Jan 26, 2022 19:09:53 GMT -5
Lol, that's fine...
I'm going to stick with data provided by the steel manufacturers and Freedom Arms, etc.
It's a world of options out there for sure...
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Post by silcott on Jan 26, 2022 19:28:23 GMT -5
Lol, that's fine... I'm going to stick with data provided by the steel manufacturers and Freedom Arms, etc. It's a world of options out there for sure... You mentioned that Ruger uses Carpenter 465 in their 454 and 480. I've never heard of it. So I had to look it up vs 17-4. Very interesting material. I sent a quote request for a 2" diameter by 6" long piece. I'll get a call to my HT guy to see if he can HT it. Justin |
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aciera
.375 Atomic
Posts: 2,211
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Post by aciera on Jan 26, 2022 19:33:13 GMT -5
Lol, that's fine... I'm going to stick with data provided by the steel manufacturers and Freedom Arms, etc. It's a world of options out there for sure... I worked with the steel manufacturers........I’ve never said anything but that. You said to listen to the smiths. And a lot so good info. But till you look at every property of a steel........some much tougher at the same hardness than others metals are. |
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Post by Encore64 on Jan 26, 2022 19:37:22 GMT -5
Lol, that's fine... I'm going to stick with data provided by the steel manufacturers and Freedom Arms, etc. It's a world of options out there for sure... You mentioned that Ruger uses Carpenter 465 in their 454 and 480. I've never heard of it. So I had to look it up vs 17-4. Very interesting material. I sent a quote request for a 2" diameter by 6" long piece. I'll get a call to my HT guy to see if he can HT it.l Justin They've got a great article on their website. It's a super strong stainless steel. It tells how Ruger went thru trials and which steels wouldn't hold the pressure. I don't believe they ever changed the physical dimensions. So, the increase in strength was strictly steel related. |
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Post by tdbarton on Jan 29, 2022 8:38:26 GMT -5
: From the Carpenter technologies website  |
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76gt80
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 45
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Post by 76gt80 on Feb 4, 2022 21:58:57 GMT -5
Interesting. I would have guessed that 2nd/3rd gen Colts would rate a little higher on the pressure scale. I find the .45 Colt to be an endlessly fascinating cartridge because of the usefulness across a broad spectrum of pressure ranges - illustrated by your cool breakdown. I’m not saying anything new, especially on this forum, but I’m newer to the game than most here. Love the info. I thought that 3rd Gen Colts were rated to safely shoot 45ACP +P in their dual cylinder guns. I could be mistaken, I might be thinking of 44 Special loads in a SAA at 45acp +p pressures. |
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Post by patrick1948 on Feb 9, 2022 21:23:29 GMT -5
The Colt SAA 2nd gen and 3rd gen can be had with the 45acp cylinder and let us not forget 357 mag also.
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 10, 2022 11:20:02 GMT -5
Mix in RPM range of a single load, add component mixing, stir in the highs & lows of SAAMI chamber, cartridge, and bore specifications... to arrive at a safe ceiling for this collection of guns...?
Power to those who can do it.
Eyeballing frames in wooden trays at Ruger’s foundry in Newport, NH, I said to Bill Ruger, Jr., “Those look like Freedom Arms.”
“They are,” says Bill. “We cast them in 17-4 PH. Two thousand a year. Tells you how many they make.”
Ruger has used 410 stainless and 416 stainless. Probably other steels. Eric Unger, manager of the Pine Tree (Ruger) foundry and a ceramics engineer, refined titanium casting to exceptional purity. Unger conceived the Super Redhawk Alaskan .454 Casull. Too much of a good thing, agreed Unger and Ruger, Jr. Never made it to production.
Ronnie Wells opened a .44 Mag Redhawk to .454 Casull and has shot quantities of .454 through it----without noticeable affect. The Redhawk is made of 416 stainless. Bill Ruger, Jr., and this shooter fired beaucoup murderous loads through the Blackhawk .357 Maximum. One day, looking over the guns I’d been shooting, Bill notices that the top strap erosion has self-arrested. The revolvers are 4140 chromoly carbon steel.
Revolvers with top strap erosion, which do not self-arrest include various alloy makes. Barrel face erosion is notably slower on a stainless Ruger with 416 barrel than on a 4140 chromoly barrel. Rifling wear is a non-issue on good revolvers with heat treated barrels, both carbon and stainless. Barrel face & forcing cone erosion becomes an issue with full house, high volume fire; proper stainless wins.
I suspect Ruger based selection of Carpenter 465 stainless for .454 and .480 cylinders on its insistence to use a 6-shot cylinder. In my mind, a mistake. Put some meat around that cartridge!
Wouldn’t surprise me to see a .45 Colt S&W cylinder take more pressure than a than a .45 Colt Blackhawk cylinder. In the event steel and heat treatment are equal, and since both pretty much center the stop notch in the cylinder, the single action locates the notch farther forward, in front of the case web. Someone may raise his hand to claim the Smith & Wesson is stronger. However, at “maximum working pressure,” the Smith will beat itself into a rattle long before the Ruger.
David Bradshaw
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 14, 2022 21:08:59 GMT -5
“Maximum working pressure” does not explain chamber pressure. The copper crusher system----CUP, or Copper Units of Pressure----measures peak pressure only, an the tools used must be calibrated. A transducer system sees all-important RISE, or TIME to PRESSURE. Example: the faster a charge reaches 30,000 psi, the more shock it carries. I’ve heard persons claim “pressure is pressure.” Were it so simple, it shouldn’t matter how you get there.
The faster pressure rises, the less time surrounding structure has to absorb it.
David Bradshaw
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Post by Encore64 on Feb 14, 2022 21:21:47 GMT -5
“Maximum working pressure” does not explain chamber pressure. The copper crusher system----CUP, or Copper Units of Pressure----measures peak pressure only, an the tools used must be calibrated. A transducer system sees all-important RISE, or TIME to PRESSURE. Example: the faster a charge reaches 30,000 psi, the more shock it carries. I’ve heard persons claim “pressure is pressure.” Were it so simple, it shouldn’t matter how you get there. The faster pressure rises, the less time surrounding structure has to absorb it. David Bradshaw This is also true with other guns. The TC Contender is especially notable. It's why the 358 Winchester has been successfully chambered for decades where the 243 Wichester is a no go. The 358 Win reaches and looses pressure far faster due to the powder burn rate and expansion ratio. I've also seen Redhawk 45 Colts rechambered to 454 Casull. Never heard of one giving way, but don't know how it would hold up with proof loads. Ronnie Wells and I have discussed the benefits of 17-4. I take him at his word due to his vast experience with it and other steels. Dave Clements is of the same opinion as Ronnie. After hearing what they had to say, there was no reason for me to look farther. This has turned into a very informative thread... |
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