So, is a "Rook Rifle" still viable?...

[jeffh]

Nov 29, 2021 11:46:10 GMT -5 Encore64 said:

Yeah, definitely a combination gun. But, would make a good thread of it's own.

I can't even get onboard with a Repeater as a Rook Rifle. That's just me though.

Most of the Original Rook Rifles were very plain. The ones that make it to books are usually very elaborate.

Plenty of space on the net for the other stuff, much of which I also like, but the rook rifle concept is not a common topic out there and I don't see a problem in the world with maintaining  a strict sense of what that is perceived to be for the sake of the thread.

Your thread. your topic, your criteria, regardless of what the rest of us think.  Some "purity" is essential to differentiate a much too neglected facet of our passion.

My personal version of this strays here and there and only fits by chance.  Thus, I don't own a rifle formed precisely within the parameters you've established for yours, but it doesn't keep me from enjoying the discussion.

I mean, it's OK to own a rifle that isn't the best zombie/mammoth slayer, isn't it?

OK, rhetorical question, in case anyone thought I was that dumb.

EDIT: I think another thread covering combos, drillings, etc. would be great too though.  Given the tastes and experiences of the crowd here, it is bound to be a great thread.

[Encore64]

Jeff, I totally agree...mostly.

It's definitely "our" thread as input is good. We all have our interpretation of the perfect anything.

Usually what's best is somewhere in the middle of the discussion.

It is an unusual concept in rifles. We generally lump everything into varmint, big game and dangerous game.

Sadly, most think of Rook Rifles (and many other guns) as things we outgrew. On that, I don't agree.

I'm afraid we were convinced that there was a better way. The Rook Cartridges and Rifles went away because of the increasing popularity of rimfires.

Sadly, the same thing goes on today. A flashy ad in a gun magazine and people scramble another direction. It's absolutely mind boggling to me how Sheeple humans are.

Someone said once "Success is hanging on when others turn loose."

[medicdave]

Well said! Just ordered the 20" 327 stainless bull barrel from MGM while they still had the sale on. Any idea of the current lead times?

[jeffh]

Nov 29, 2021 16:18:23 GMT -5 medicdave said:

Well said! Just ordered the 20" 327 stainless bull barrel from MGM while they still had the sale on. Any idea of the current lead times?

HAH!

This is so much fun! 

I really wanted to put together a 32 or 32 cal single-shot along these lines, but compromised with the 35s for the sake of commonality of components and tooling, among other reasons previously stated.

Thanks to this thread, I'm having a great time playing with the concept vicariously, while you guys pay for the hardware!

[tdbarton]

Nov 29, 2021 15:39:04 GMT -5 Encore64 said:

We generally lump everything into varmint, big game and dangerous game.

Sadly, most think of Rook Rifles (and many other guns) as things we outgrew. On that, I don't agree.

I'm afraid we were convinced that there was a better way. The Rook Cartridges and Rifles went away because of the increasing popularity of rimfires.

Well here’s where I go back to my observation from a while back. Do you think it was due to the increased popularity of rimfires…or that you could get pistol/lower caliber repeaters in roughly the same size/weight class? The way I see it, the problem with hitting small game is that…it’s small. Rapid follow-up shots make a heck of a lot of sense to those putting rabbits in the stew pot for those family, not leisurely meandering the English countryside in tweed. And I mean no disrespect to those sporting gentlemen - but it’s a rich man’s game and a limited market.

Just my very un-learned opinions.

[Encore64]

I do not think that was the reason. One of the reasons Original Rook Rifles are so desirable today is many of them were relined to rimfire cartridges.

Look at what's happened with 9mm vs 40 S&W. Years ago shooters were convinced by the media that the 40 S&W was far superior to the 9mm. So, everybody bought one. Now the theory is that 9mm Ammo has improved to the point that it's better than the 40 S&W.

It's all a game to keep people spending money. It's the same with clothes, furniture, bedding, etc.

[medicdave]

While there are some beautiful superbly British rook rifles, my take is that there were many many more in the hands of farmers, gamekeepers, and ground keepers than landed gentry. The usefulness of a small bore rifle in controlling vermin as well rabbits and rooks for the pot (and maybe one of the kings deer on the sly?) while not costing a lot to buy ammo or load for would have tremendous appeal. We don't see as many of the pedestrian rifles as they were used as tools not left hanging in the gun room until the neighboring laird put on a rook shoot.

In our own circle of single actions there's many more folks out there with box stock Blackhawks than even lightly modified let alone full custom builds by a top tier smith.

[Encore64]

Probably all true...

I've varmint hunted for years in Colorado and New Mexico. Mostly for prairie dogs, but occasionally other critters.

One lesson we learned early is noise matters. When guys broke out their 22-250, 220 Swift, 223 Rem, etc rifles, everything disappeared.

When shooting 17 HMR, 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, etc we could stay in one place and hunt for hours.

I'd think you'd want to minimize noise for all critters, two and four legged.

I'm sure inexpensive rimfire ammo and not having to reload was appealing in those days.

[dougader]

Noise really does matter. We started as kids with a Daisy BB gun and then a Crossman pump bb and pellet gun. Then Dad taught us to shoot his old 22 Winchester pump action, a 62A?. Later I bought a 357 magnum.

Dad made it clear which animals we could shoot as vermin and which ones to leave alone. He only ever let us take one quail off the property (5 acres) I grew up on because he loved having them around the garden.

But we could shoot the crows, the coyotes, feral cats and barn swallows if they built their nests under the eaves on the house. One year the robins got thinned out because they hopped along our corn field, pulled up the little starts and ate the seed off the bottom.... we had to replant the whole acre in corn by hand. We didn't have a tractor for that.

Anyway, the animals would flare and come back if you used a quiet gun, but everything would scatter for good if we grabbed a shotgun or I shot full bore 357 mag from my 6" Taurus model 66. Even when I took that one quail with the 22, a head shot from several yards out, the other quail ran into the blackberry bushes at the shot and then came out a few seconds later, strutting around and looking for bugs.

I love the idea of a low powered cast bullet for small game and pests. Honestly, I have been using my Super 14 30-30 Contender for powder puff loads for the past 4-5 years and haven't fired a single deer hunting load in all that time. I bought up some green powder coated 130 grain (advertised as 113 grain) bullets from a guy online and find it's quite fun to wring out a little accuracy from the Contender with these at 25 yards, open sights.

[Encore64]

Thanks for weighing in Doug. Your experience mimics mine exactly.

It's tricky figuring this out to an exact science.

Most pistol type cartridges I've dealt with max out in velocity at 12-14" of barrel length. The shorter powder column/charge has done all it can do.

The remaining barrel only keeps the bullet moving as pressure drops. The tricky part is getting the exact amount of extra barrel for the bullet to exit before friction actually causes velocity loss. That's where I want to be for maximum velocity and minimum noise.

I'm ashamed to admit how much effort I've put into this. But, it's all been fun.

The 30 Reece Case requires forming and trimming once my 300 rds of factory brass give up the ghost. But, it's the one that does what I want perfectly. So, I'll form cases and know it's worth the effort...

[jeffh]

NOISE. I hate noise and DUST. I use a lot of "cordless" woodworking tools ("antiques," some call them) because 1) they often do a better job and 2) they don't make the fine dust or horrendous noise that power tools make.

As for guns, I feel the same way. Shoot a squirrel in the woods with a shotgun and everything goes silent for a long time. Use a 22 short, and there is a brief pause, but it's business as usual very quickly.

I've never been much a rimfire user, mostly because the most available and affordable 22 LR is too loud and too powerful. "High Velocity" has become standard, and "Standard Velocity" has become extinct*. on the rare occasion you can find it, it's terribly expensive.

I had an Ithaca 49 when I was a kid and it was really cool because it worked like a Martini and it was as easy to load a 22 short as a LR. For many years, I though that one of those, if the action were steel, would make a dandy 32, 38 or 357 single-shot, to be loaded with small doses of fast pistol powders for quiet and economical shooting.

I think the "catch" is that you have to actually HUNT to use an arm of this nature - getting close enough to be sure of exact shot placement and ensuring that the bullet has enough steam left to do its job when it gets there. I tend to look at the case and not the hype, as with the 300 BLK. Not a large case by any means, a smallish bore, perfect for "loading down" with cast, and no worries about buying specialized brass that won't last long when run full-throttle using a bunch of powder.

I don't like noise and I'm old enough that no one questions or argues when I declare that I like what I like and that's all the reason I need. They may just writing me off as a stubborn old grouch stuck in the past, but I'm fine with that - as long as they leave me alone and don't make noise.

*Wait! NOW, they call "Standard Velocity" 22 LR "Sub-Sonic" and slap a bigger price tag on it. I think a bunch of people might be unaware that a LOT of "High Velocity" 22 LR IS sub-sonic out of 4" and shorter handguns. Still way too loud for me.

[Encore64]

You nailed the problem. Most people don't hunt, they harvest.

Not to kick anyone's ego in the buttocks, but shooting game from a feed trough isn't my definition of hunting.

You can bet the guys in the Rook Rifle Era were hunters. Many had to be successful hunting or go to bed hungry.

I suspect what worked then will work now. You won't read about in Whiz-bang Magnum Magazine, but it'll work...

[Encore64]

Finally found an affordable copy of "The Classic British Rook & Rabbit Rifle" and have it coming.

There's not a ton of information about them, so feel like I could certainly learn more.

I'm not sure there's a definitive guide as everything I read is a little different. Including the cartridges they're chambered in.

[medicdave]

Stumbled on another candidate more in the groundskeeper line, a late NEF handi rifle in 22 hornet. Ended up getting the rifle cheaper than what most barrels are selling for. Hopefully it'll be a shooter with both the speer 33gr tnt which downloaded would mimic the .220 rook cartridge or up a bit with the wide meplat 46gr speer bee bullet. Believe it or not the hornet is a legal deer cartridge in Maine so it would fit in with the idea of small game and shots of opportunity at the kings deer (not advocating poaching). Think it will be a fantastic target of opportunity truck gun and with a youth stock added, centerfire trainer for my little boy.

On a side note, I do have a set of RCBS 22k hornet dies with a 79 date code. Any idea what shoulder angle they were using then? Wouldn't mind reaming the chamber to k but need to know which reamer to match.

[Encore64]

I wasn't aware the K-Hornet was ever made with different shoulder angles.

Some of the Improved Cartridges we're, but I think all K-Hornets are the same.

Sounds like an interesting project and a fun gun...