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Post by olgeorge on Aug 31, 2021 14:43:09 GMT -5
Looking on he internet, I found reference to the "Munden Step", which was a step on the top of the bolt or cylinder to enable the bolt to start into the stop notch earlier. Further research turned up pictures on another forum showing bolts in which Bob Munden had filed a groove into the top of the bolt, front to rear, supposedly to lighten it and make it engage quicker. There was much criticism of this modification, with some saying it could allow the bolt to bounce and engage only one side of the bolt in the stop notches, throwing the chambers out of alignment with the barrel. I've seen Munden on Shooting USA's "Impossible Shots", but never saw any of his gunsmithing or spoke to anyone who had. I've also heard of drilling a blind hole into the bottom of the bolt, into the engaging lug for the same purpose. It looks to me like that would be the better method, if one thought lightening the bolt to be necessary. I'm wondering if such modifications have any real benefit for ordinary use, if they are only helpful for fast shooting or if they help at all. I tend to agree with those who are against it, but then the Colt Frontier Scout had a bolt made of folded spring steel with no center at all in the lug that engaged the cylinder stop notches and it seemed to work OK. Maybe it's one of those thing that doesn't really hurt anything, but doesn't help much , either. What are your thoughts and experiences? L. O. G.
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Post by bigmuddy on Aug 31, 2021 16:40:12 GMT -5
I’ve got a Colt SAA that has a Bob Munden action job with the groove in the bolt. I remember him explaining the purpose to me but never really understood. The gun is very smooth and has performed well for 27 years. I really see no need to “lighten” the bolt and my other Colts without it work just as well.
Dan
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Post by tdbarton on Aug 31, 2021 17:56:31 GMT -5
I believe this topic came up a while back - though it may have been on another forum. There was some conversation/debate as to the location of the groove and whether or not it had an meaningful impact on the operation of the bolt. I believe Mr. Bradshaw had some insight into this and perhaps he’ll chime in. I’d be curious as to see a picture of an altered bolt if someone had one handy.
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Post by olgeorge on Aug 31, 2021 19:12:18 GMT -5
On the Colt forums under 'single action army', Bob Munden'Sixgun Magic'questions, post #30 on page 2, dated Feb., 2017 there is a photo of three colt bolts. One is stock, the other two have been modified, presumably by Munden. Posted for Jim Martin. There are three pages of discussion on the subject. Not discounting what they have to say, I wanted to hear what those on this forum have experienced. I have no intention of performing such an alteration on any thing I own, just looking for info out of curiosity. L. O. G.
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Post by 45dragoon on Aug 31, 2021 19:18:50 GMT -5
Wow!!! I used to do the "Munden step" but a call from Jim Martin convinced me to NOT do it because of "bounce" and that he (Mr. Martin) had repaired several of his (Bob's) setups so, . . . I came up with my own version which is more of a Munden "swoop" or "slide" if you will. I agreed with Jim that every action has a reaction so the slide made sense. I don't think the lightening aspect of the step makes much sense but introducing the bolt head earlier than normal made sense. I have drilled the underside of the bolt head to reduce weight but of the state championships won with my revolvers, none have had that Mod. so I'm not convinced it is a necessary mod.
Mike
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Post by olgeorge on Aug 31, 2021 19:51:02 GMT -5
Mike: I thought you might chime in on this. It was your Instagram site where I saw the "Munden step" that got me started on this topic. Have you had any experience with the Frontier Scout revolvers? I knew a guy who had one many years ago, but never fired it myself. The guy got quicker on the trigger than the draw one day and shot him self in the knee. No permanent damage, but he sold the revolver shortly thereafter and quit the fast draw hobby. Anyway the Scout seemed to work OK, but I always thought that was a cheap way to make a bolt. Also, I didn't have to call and interrupt your work to get your opinion!! L. O. G.
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Post by tdbarton on Aug 31, 2021 19:59:12 GMT -5
Pic from the Colt forum:  |
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Post by 45dragoon on Aug 31, 2021 20:51:38 GMT -5
Olgeorge, lol!! Thanks !! Well, I do that "slide" as a norm in my service and of course on my personal revolvers as well. One of my favorite S.A.'s was an Uberti El Patron Competition that I tricked out with my own full coils (flat main) and added a 45acp cyl. It was a most excellent S.A. !!! I only see it when I shoot with my buddy I sold it to!!
I build um so you can "treat um like a fool" and still shoot tomorrow!!! Lol!! Anyway, it's a good mod as long as you don't make it an actual "step" but as a "slide" it works great and helps prevent throw-by.
Also, I put a neg angle on the "face" of the bolt so the full width is only the very top of the bolt head but it protects the notch from any contact from the rest of the head. Those things plus an action stop and a bolt block helps to make an indestructible six gun!!
Mike
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Post by olgeorge on Sept 1, 2021 10:28:03 GMT -5
Mike: By "slide" I assume you mean a slightly concave contour on the top of the part of the bolt that engages the cylinder stop notch. I can see how that could let the stop to start into the notch earlier, but without a jump to create a "bounce" on the way in. I'm still wondering about the Scout version, though. L. O. G.
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Post by bradshaw on Sept 1, 2021 11:40:06 GMT -5
I believe this topic came up a while back - though it may have been on another forum. There was some conversation/debate as to the location of the groove and whether or not it had an meaningful impact on the operation of the bolt. I believe Mr. Bradshaw had some insight into this and perhaps he’ll chime in. I’d be curious as to see a picture of an altered bolt if someone had one handy. ***** Can’t speak to the Colt Single Action Army, a.k.a. Peacemaker, but I did a trigger job on a Ruger Blackhawk, which owner had sent to Bob Munden for his trigger job. Considerable expense later, his Blackhawk returned with a unique, very annoying quality at HAMMER FALL. Also, engagement of TRIGGER SEAR & HAMMER DOG were not to my liking. I replaced lockwork----including hammer & trigger----and began my tune from there. The Munden-altered CYLINDER CATCH, a.k.a. bolt or cylinder stop, had a flute, which purpose I couldn’t figure. Fortunately, the frame hadn’t been touched. Don’t remember my exact trigger job, but it was clean and secure. To save the Munden-altered hammer and trigger, I’d have to shorten stroke to FULL COCK, a lot of work with sub-satisfactory result. Later on, gathered at the dining room table of knife maker Jerry Halfrich in San Antonio, I described that particular situation to John Linebaugh. John knew exactly what I was talking about. Said he wouldn’t work on a gun Munden had worked on. Linebaugh speaks directly to a vexing challenge often presented the knowledgeable gunsmith: to fix someone else’s work. Bob Munden was exceedingly fast on the draw and a high end marksman. Let’s make that abundantly clear. David Bradshaw |
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Post by 45dragoon on Sept 1, 2021 12:00:53 GMT -5
Olgeorge - Yessir, rather than an actual step, more of a slope. Jim said he had seen some notch damage in some he had repaired. The setup allowed me to "fan" my El Patron 50 cycles a day for at least two yrs. which at some point escalated to 100 cycles a day with the addition of the 45acp cyl.(equal opportunity punishment !! Lol). This was done only for my own R&D and not to be "showy"! You can't tell folks that you offer this or that and it not work (and stick around)!! I don't do any mods that don't have an actual reason to to be done! My whole idea from the get go was to give the customer the very best functioning S.A. revolver that that revolver could be! What that means to me is, if you are a " plinker" or very casual shooter - that's fine but if you sometimes like to scratch a "wild itch" well, you're covered!!! You ain't gonna break it!!! With cap guns, I've given folks the ability to shoot longer because the cleaning chores are the barrel, cylinder and wipe the frame down!! No need to open the action for cleaning (or repair!!). Thanks Olgeorge!! Mike |
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Post by 45dragoon on Sept 1, 2021 12:17:46 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw, I'm sure Mr. Martin would agree with you! He was not necessarily a big Munden fan and I was told some stories . . . so. Lol!
As far as the reason for the reduction in the normal roughly 10° slope of the bolt head, a faster "slope" gets the "high side" of the bolt into the notch faster than the normal slope would allow. For me the problem was the on-coming notch edge being battered by the rest of the bolt head proper. This is my reason for a "clearanced" bolt face to allow the edge of the notch to be clear of any meeting with the bolt structure that's not already in the notch. This setup has proven successful with protecting the notches.
Mike
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Post by bradshaw on Sept 1, 2021 14:10:37 GMT -5
“I knew a guy who had one many years ago, but never fired it myself. The guy got quicker on the trigger than the draw one day and shot him self in the knee. No permanent damage, but he sold the revolver shortly thereafter and quit the fast draw hobby."
----olgeorge
*****
Tough myself fast draw at 18 with a 6-1/2” .357 Blackhawk. Made my own brass buckle, 3” belt and, with a bit of guidance from Chic Gaylord, water-molded my first serious holster. Coming from NRA riflery followed by the M1 Garand, MUZZLE CONTROL was built into every move. Fast draw consisted of dry fire and live ammo, always focussed on target. Speed follows marksmanship. My holsters had exposed trigger guard, with index finger in the guard simultaneous to my hand indexing the grip. Cockong starts a micro-movement after start of draw. The trigger finger does not lift the gun! Hammer reaches full cock as muzzle arcs up. Entire operation orients to target.
I never popped blanks.
Much later in life I received some Kyudo training from a 20th generation bow maker to the Imperial Court of Japan. Kyudo describes the structure of its practice as COORDINATIONS----specific movements practiced exactly. I had been practicing coordinations in both marksmanship & fast draw throughout my shooting life without a term to describe the process. EXACT PRAXTICE of the COORDINATIONS translates into FORM on the Firing Line, or in the woods, or under adversity. Some people call it training. I call it practice, same as breathing.
Some people get into fast draw without the slightest grounding in MARKSMANSHIP. That’s like stepping into a bullring, having never met a bull.
David Bradshaw
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