Ruger Old Army Hollow Base Bullet

[starmetal47]

I'm happy with the final results.  The bullet weights 231 grains and is .4565 on the bands, and the smaller diameter near the base will slip easily into the cylinder mouth. Now if it shoots good it's a success.  Here's pic of it lubed.

[starmetal47]

I was out shooting the ROA today.  I was shooting the bullet talked about above the Lyman hollow base mold for the 1858 Remington, also a 200 grain SWC bevel base from a SAECO mold, and a 225 grain round nose from Lyman's copy of the 230 grain 45acp hardball.  Here are the velocities with 30 grains by volume of Tripple 777:

1858 Remington at 231 grains gave..............................................931 fps 10 feet from the chronograph
225 grain SWC SAECO bullet gave................................................1013 fps 10 feet from the chronograph
225 grain round nose LYMAN gave.................................................924 fps 10 feet from the chronograph

I have two pics. One is of the 1858 Remington fired into a bundle of rags...lots of rags!  This is for boolitdesigner Bob because he thought the smaller portion of the bullet near the base, which you can see in the pic in a post above this, was too small.  Not to worry he need not worry about it. I told him the bullet would expand out (which by the way the thick skirt took all the Triple 777 pressure) and you can plainly see that it did. 

The bullet that shot the smallest group at 25 yards was the Lyman 225 grain round nose hardball copy.  It was 3/4 inch.  The others were close to that. 




Next pic is of the bore after firing nearly 30 shots, again for boolitdesigner, to show him how clean Triple 777 shoots as I've been telling him about this much.




Remember I only lube the lube grooves on the bullet and don't put any lube in the fronts of the cylinder. 

[alamogunr]

I hesitate to intrude into this discussion but am very interested in the final results. One question; Does the thick base detract from its' use with regular BP? I'm not really into BP substitutes.

[starmetal47]

alamogunr.....No the thick base works fine with BP also. There's plenty enough pressure there to obturate it and remember we're using lead bullets not an alloyed bullet which is much harder. I did test some of these loads with BP too just to see how much difference there was between it and the substitutes. If you read through all this you will remember where I said the Lyman 225 grain roundnose which they made to simulate the 230 roundnose hardball for the 45acp shot the most accurate. That particular bullet has been one of the most accurate out of all the 45 calibers firearms I own. If you are just shooting for the pleasure of plinking some target and not hunting that would be a great bullet for you to use.

I read the group buy thread over on Castboolits, which I know you are member of, and that bullet designed by Onty is too long and too heavy for the ROA. It's also very difficult to load. Now I see his inventiveness has taken another curve, but he still insists on too long of a bullet. My eyes popped out at seeing an O-ring seal on the front groove! Now I realize he's designing his bullet for use in the ROA which has much more cylinder capactiy then the Colt or Remington replica's, but their use in those revolvers would not work out well because of their limited cylinder capacity and length all except for the Colt Walker Dragoons or such revolvers.

I wanted to add that I see no reason to use a hollow base bullet in a BP revolver.  I only modified that Remington bullet designed by Lyman to get more weight from it and still get more powder in the cylinder.   With a lathe you can make any type of base on it that you wish. 

[starmetal47]

Update on testing of the Triple 777 to see if it's corrosive.  It's been almost two weeks and here is what I've found after shooting 777 and not cleaning the ROA.  I see no corrosion and no rusting, but what I did find is of concern.  Where the revolver was exposed to the little residue the 777 leaves is WET!  So it's indeed hydroscopic. Not so much a problem with stainless steel, but on a non-stainless steel firearm it would be a bigger concern.  I"m probably going to clean it now.  So end results, at least with stainless steel, you don't have to clean it immediately, you can let it set. 

[starmetal47]

As I am typing this my ROA is in my wife's dishwasher!  LOL  one of the better hassle free ways to clean a BP revolver.  Make sure you take the grips off first. 

[Onty]

Jun 15, 2021 11:48:44 GMT -5 starmetal47 said:

Thanks starmetal for informing me about this thread, and my apology for so late replay. I was away from home for a while.

In addition what you sad about designing process, I would like to add the following. First, my desire was to create a bullet for Ruger Old Army (further ROA), that will duplicate performance of tried and true original load for 45 Colt with black powder; 250 grains at about 900 fps from revolver with 7.5" barrel. Apparently, this was initial US Army requirement in order to drop the horse on 100 yds.

As you mentioned, my primary goal is to have a hunting bullet good enough for wild boars in my area, that could go up to 300 lbs., although in some more fertile area further north, with more available food, weight could be up to 400 lbs. So, I started searching for a good bullet  250-255 grain bullet, that could be still loaded in ROA without removing cylinder, and have a decent meplat dia for more effectiveness, and for straight penetration. I stumbled upon these series of tests conducted by Mike Beliveau. He tested 3 types of bullets; round ball, 225 grain conical (round nose) and LBT style Kaido Ojamaa 255 grain, using Goex FFFG and Triple Seven. Look for all tests here www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ruger+old+army+powder+projectile+test .

After watching all six videos, I was convinced that for my application the most appropriate bullet is Kaido Ojamaa bullet. Here are tests using both, Goex FFFG and Triple Seven

Goex FFFG  www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNiXnjPG7M8 , penetration 10 jugs filled with water

Triple Seven www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA , penetration 11+ jugs filled with water

Very impressive indeed.

Note about Goex FFFG powder: Load was 30 grains. However, I have a second cylinder for ROA, and most likely will bore it deeper. If I remembered correctly, this will add about 5 grains of powder capacity. Another option I am considering is to convert second cylinder to shoot 209 shotgun primers and make a gated back plate with firing pin, but that is another topic.

So, I started thread about proposed bullet designs, including one designed by boolitdesigner, but as starmetal mentioned, interest was low. After seeing that, I went back to my initial design, realizing that rebated dia on first design was short, some members suggested a longer one for easier reloading. Well, this could be done, but longer rebated dia will shorten bullet bearing surface, and that wouldn't help accuracy. So, in order to get longer rebated dia, and have a longer bearing surface, I partially copied design from Webley .455 bullet, and a final result was this design:

You starmetal mentioned in one of your posts "My eyes popped out at seeing an O-ring seal on the front groove!". What is the problem? This is just an idea for prevention of chainfire (although, most reports are that chainfire is most likely to start from the back of cylinder), better seal to prevent a moisture from get in, and (hopefully) additional friction between bullet and cylinder, to prevent bullet from walking forward during recoil. If someone doesn't like O-ring, fine. Just don't put it. If I manage to get this bullet mold made, I will try both options, with O-ring, and without it.

When new bullet mold will happen? I will have contact bullet mold manufacturers. One possibility is to modify a mold for hollow base Webley .455 bullet I have. By removing bit of the top, bullet will be shortened and have about 250-255 grains, and will use swagging die to make lower portion with rebated dia.

Would all this mentioned above work? I have no idea. However, the only way to find out is to make samples and fire them. Hopefully, my Ransom Rest is still in a good condition (stored for at least 10 years) and grips for Ruger SBH will work for ROA also.

[starmetal47]

Well lots to say Onty and don't know where to begin.  Let me say I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers for over 51 years. I've shot all the replica's of 1800's cap and ball Colts, the 1858 Remington Army, and of course the Ruger Old Army.  I've also shot an original Colt 1860.  Many people would be surprised what the round ball would do out of those old black powder cap n ball revolvers. More then you can imagine.  Here's an interesting true story. I got this from a many who traveled the country interviewing Civil War Veterans on both sides of the skirmish and writing a book about it.  I'll cut to the chase on this and get right to the feat. A Union Lieutenant's shot a Confederate soldier riding off on his horse at a measured 400 yards with a 1860 Colt with black powder and a round ball and the Lieutenant was on horse back also.  He hit the Confederate soldier between the shoulder blade in the back killing him pretty instant.  Two Union privates witnessed it and bragged it up, but the Lieutenant said he was aiming for the whole mass of man on horseback.  Never the less that round ball killed him at that distance.  That brings me to shooting wild boar.  Wild Boar aren't that hard to kill when you shoot them in the right place.  We have a large population of black bear where I live and they reach over 600 pounds.  Most the calibers they shoot these bruins with are the 30-30 and 243 Winchester.  I say all this because you don't have to have a 250 to 255 grain bullet to kill your boar with where you live.  My 235 grain bullet hitting over 1000 fps is plenty enough and more then what you need for your boar hunting.   Shooting jugs of water prove nothing to me. 

I just think that your o-ring on the bullet is unnecessary.  In the number of years I've said I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers I've never had a chain fire. You heard right that chain fires do almost 100% of the time start at the rear of the cylinder near the caps.  They picture you seen of my bullet lubed is how I load and shoot them. No addition lube over the front of the cylinder and no lubed Ox Yoke wads under the bullets.

Now you sure sound like you're thinking of going through a lot of trouble to either bore the ROA cylinder deeper or even converting it to take 209 shotgun primers.  Let me save you some trouble.  Why don't you purchase one of the replica Colt Walker Dragoons, and a good company to get one from is Uberti which hold 60 grains of black powder, and have a gunsmith put a set of good adjustable target sights on it?  You know do that CCI makes Magnum #11 caps don't you? Probably other manufacturers do too.  

That fellow on youtube had his Triple Seven loads shoot over top the target because ROA's have the wrong front sight height  for Triple Seven's velocities.  I've had quite a few ROA's and had to change the front sights on them. If he was such an expert why didn't he already know that it was going to shoot that high with Triple Seven???  Triple Seven also REQUIRES as much pressure as you can muster on seating the bullet to compress it really well.  I would advise a reloading device that is bench mounted. 

With all you claim you are going to do you could save yourself much money and work instead of messing with special bullet moulds and gun alterations.  By the way are you allowed to hunt wild boar where you live if you put one of the conversion cylinders in your ROA for the 45 Colt cartridge?  If so you would have your cake and eat it too!  

[Onty]

I appreciate you comments and opinion, and if you are happy with your 235 grains at 1000 fps, that's fine. You proved your point! I would like to see would mine work. I take this as as a challenge, something to work on it. At least, it would be interesting project. On the end, I will compare my results with yours, and we will have something to talk about.

Regarding wild boars, well, I've heard about guy who killed from a stand wild boar ( not a feral hog, we don't have those) with well placed 9x19, and he had done that several times. The point is that he is top notch shooter, capable for making off hand 2-3" on 25 meters all day long.

As for Triple Seven, unfortunately, not available in my area (I am in Europe, Croatia, since retired 2019). However, at least 3 types of black powder are available, including Swiss one. So, if 255 Kaido bullet, lunched from ROA by FFG black powder, could go through 10 jugs of water, while having a nice meplat for a large wound channel, and going straight, that's all I need. A BIG problem in my area is to find a good smith that could modify Walker you mentioned, and most likely will charge arm and leg. On top, I don't think that any Civil War replica could compare in quality (steel and manufacturing), strength and durability with ROA. On top of that, mine ROA is stainless.

As for 45 Colt cylinder for ROA, no use for me. In that case I will have to reclassify ROA from front loading firearm to cartridge one. The point is that to purchase ROA, I don't need a license. If I want more punch, I have two 44 Magnum, and made a deal for third one.

[starmetal47]

i understand where you are coming from Onty.  Being you are only going to use black powder exclusively the strength of the ROA really isn't needed and besides the replica's of today are stronger the the originals they are replicating.  Ruger always did build vault safe firearms and the ROA is strong way beyond black powder pressures.  Also many of the replica's are made of stainless today.  Not so authentic, but never the less more rust and corrosion proof.  To modify that Walker Dragoon all you would really need is a triangular file to file a dovetail in the rear portion of the barrel for a rear sight.  I once modified a Colt type cap and ball buy fabricating a better sight on the hammer and I also corrected the windage with it.  Those notches in the hammer for a sight can be quite effective for hunting purposes. You remember you did speak of modifying the ROA to take 209 shotshell primers.  How were you going to do that cost effective?

I was thinking about what you said about drilling the ROA cylinders deeper.  I believe they are about as deep as can be.  I'll have to check that out. 

The only weak link I can find on the ROA is that you can bend the cylinder pin when putting too much force on seating a bullet.  This really only happened to me when using Triple Seven because it requires much compression of the powder to make it work better. 

Keep posting as I am enjoying your comments and good luck to you on your next boar hunt.  When do you think that will be?

[pacecars]

I know that David Clements drills the cylinders deeper on the ROA

[lar4570]

I have the Lee 456-220-1R that I've been shooting in my stainless ROA. With the Lee 220 I can fit just over 40gn of 777 FFFg for just over 1000fps.
The stock front sight was too low so I put one of Fermin's sight blades on it.
The target below was 6 shots at 25 yards with the original front sight, I was shooting at the target below it.
I have since put a BFR rear sight on it as well. Hunting season is coming, so I'll have to see how it does. I wouldn't mind having a heavier bullet with a flat nose, but I'm hoping the 220 @ 1000fps will be enough.










This target was with 30gn of Swiss FFFg, I'll have to dig around and see if I can find the target with 777.