weiler
.30 Stingray
Posts: 423
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Post by weiler on Jul 31, 2020 7:56:37 GMT -5
I meant to post these months ago following some messages back and forth with Mr. Bradshaw, finally have a little time while away on vacation. While instructions of the country simple Ruger trigger job are straightforward, I'd sure feel more comfortable with some kind of jig set up to keep my stoning/polishing on the straight and narrow. any ideas on a simple stoning guide? I suppose layout dye would also be a useful tool in this job. I've included caliper measurements of the hammer dog/sear engagement, I'll update when I get back to NW Ohio if I mis-printed. As reference, my Super Blackhawk (non-bisley) has a hammer dog/sear engagement length of ~.002" (gunsmith back in Loudonville, ohio did that work for me back in college). Bisley Blackhawk 45 convertible (Nikon d5000). Length of hammer dog is .00225 to .0025" . This factory trigger is actually quite good, and has noticeably less "take-up" than the 44 special below. Bisley Flattop 44 Special (Iphone!). The length of the hammer dog engagement I believe is .003"+ and has noticeable take-up/creep
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Post by bradshaw on Jul 31, 2020 21:00:38 GMT -5
I meant to post these months ago following some messages back and forth with Mr. Bradshaw, finally have a little time while away on vacation. While I modification/instructions of a country simple Ruger trigger job is straightforward, I'd sure feel more comfortable with some kind of jig set up to keep my stoning/polishing on the straight and narrow. any ideas on a simple stoning guide? I suppose layout dye would also be a useful tool in this job. I've included caliper measurements of the hammer dog/sear engagement, I'll update when I get back to NW Ohio if I mis-printed. As reference, my Super Blackhawk (non-bisley) has a hammer dog/sear engagement length of ~.002" (gunsmith back in Loudonville, ohio did that work for me back in college). Bisley Blackhawk 45 convertible (Nikon d5000). Length of hammer dog is .00225 to .0025" . This factory trigger is actually quite good, and has noticeably less "take-up" than the 44 special below. Bisley Flattop 44 Special (Iphone!). The length of the hammer dog engagement I believe is .003"+ and has noticeable take-up/creep ***** Weiler.... good photos of Ruger New Model sear-to-dog interface. Detail of TRIGGER SEAR in HAMMER FULL COCK NOTCH (photo #3) shows very generous CONTACT PATCH of sear against full cock dog. I’m not sure about the angles illustrated; has contact angle of sear and/or dog been touched since it left the factory? Ruger angles incline to engage, a principle Ruger described as REGAIN. If regain is lost, full cock inclines to disengage. This is easily detected with gentle accumulation of pressure on the trigger: at hammer fall the trigger remains stationary or kicks forward. Some feel it as trigger bounce. That is a fugitive trigger, certain to deteriorate in use. Ruger heat treatment takes a backseat to no other, and this is certainly true of Ruger hammers & triggers. A trigger job on poor metal deteriorates quick. A fugitive trigger job on poor metal melts like snow in a blast furnace. It is difficult, nearly impossible to measure the depth of the hammer notch with a caliper. A jig which locates the hammer blows measurement by indicator. Various smaiths have made such jigs and I would-be’t be surprised if fellows such s Jim Clark, Sr., Ron Power, and Ronnie Wells have made such fixtures. I don’t have such a jig. It is less important to know notch depth than to understand the REGAIN principle to to recognize proper engagement. “One size fits all” does not fit revolver stocks, nor trigger pulls. To go light requires an imperturbable trigger finger. A breathing mind. David Bradshaw
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Post by 45dragoon on Jul 31, 2020 21:35:08 GMT -5
David, is Ruger's "regain" the same as "positive engagement" ?
Mike
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Post by bradshaw on Aug 1, 2020 4:18:15 GMT -5
David, is Ruger's "regain" the same as "positive engagement" ? Mike ***** Mike.... not familiar with term “positive engagement.” Technically it sounds vague. Some lockwork uses what may be referred to a “hook engagement,” which inclines to regain but in the process raises the cocked hammer on trigger squeeze. It’s a fine line between HOOK and REGAIN, and a fine line between REGAIN and FUGITIVE. In making this statement, realize the lingo is not as subtle as a good trigger job. Ronnie Wells takes advantage of Ruger's consistency in planing the bottom and rear of the single action frame, with extreme consistency in locating the five grip frame screws. (However, Ruger's grip frames aren’t all located with the same consistency.) Bill Ruger also sorted out engagement angles of trigger sear and hammer dog to achieve desired regain. In manufacture, the cutter doesn’t always provide the best finish to the CONTACT PATCH. As a rule, I advise against monkeying with the actual contact patch, as the so-called average shooter is better off leaving it alone and dry firing to simultaneously smooth BRAIN, TRIGGER FINGER, and LETOFF. Drawbacks to polishing or stoning the TRIGGER SEAR to HAMMER DOG include: * changing angle of sear or dog----defeat regain. * rounding or beveling sear. * rounding notch in hammer The contact patch is narrow on the old Peacemaker. replicas, and old model Blackhawk and Single-Six. A short, clean break hasn’t the strength of Ruger’s New Model with engagement surface twice as wide. I would not take Peacemaker-type engagement down as far as I would on a New Model tuned for silhouette. Again, in case anyone reading this has cement for brains, NEVER “test” single action engagement by pushing on a cocked hammer! Pressure applied is arbitrary, uninformed, quite often ham-handed, and my ruin a perfectly safe engagement. David Bradshaw
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Post by 45dragoon on Aug 1, 2020 10:15:50 GMT -5
Thanks David. In a Colt style action (including OM Ruger S.A.) the full cock notch cut (ledge) angle determines the mechanical advantage the hammer has over the sear. This angle is what gives the engagement a positive, neutral or negative attitude. Positive is the "safest" setup as it raises the hammer as the trigger is pulled (what you described with your underlined statement above). A neutral engagement allows no movement or static movement and negative is an accident waiting to happen!! (Negative allowing the hammer to start a forward movement during trigger pull)
When tuning this type of action, the mainspring tension has the dominant influence on the trigger pull weight. Lightening the mainspring (such as for cowboy competition) has a direct effect on the angle needed to maintain pull weight (which is mostly mechanical advantage more so than trigger spring tension). To ensure the max. amount of safety for the shooter as well as bystanders, I always make sure there is a positive engagement setup. Thanks for the explanation.
Mike
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bamagreg
.327 Meteor
Woodstock, GA
Posts: 853
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Post by bamagreg on Aug 2, 2020 7:42:43 GMT -5
I had the same concerns about stoning the hammer to reduce the engagement surface without a jig/fixture. What I tried worked well. I put the hammer in a small vice with the face to be stoned parallel to the top of the jaws and protruding the amount you want to remove. Then you just file/stone down to the jaw. Remove the hammer and touch up the edges then test in the gun. Go in small increments until you get it like you want. If your vise jaws are not flat or even just stone them first to get them flat.
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Post by 45dragoon on Aug 3, 2020 7:35:30 GMT -5
Bamagreg, another way to achieve that end is to install a small set screw just below the ledge. Then you can adjust the amount of engagement without fear of going too far.
Mike
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Shakey
.327 Meteor
Central Arkansas
Posts: 543
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Post by Shakey on Aug 3, 2020 22:17:31 GMT -5
45dragoon, I think reducing the sear engagement with a set screw below the ledge is an excellent method, ...much better than stoning off the nose to my mind.
Being able to back up when you have gone too skinny with your engagement is priceless. Also, though they do not seem to be common problems, it eliminates the possibility of creating trigger kickback or failing to raise the transfer bar enough to function.
Unfortunately, I don't have the means to do the D&T and don't know anyone that does. So, I have been reducing mine by adding a too-thick pad of JB Weld below the ledge and filing it down until I am satisfied with the engagement. I have been doing this for several years and on numerous guns without issue but I just don't trust it enough to use it on "serious" guns, only toys.
45dragoon, would you mind sharing how you install a set screw, ...pictures maybe?
I would love to learn how to install a set screw myself or find someone to do the D&T for me. Anybody out there that does this?
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weiler
.30 Stingray
Posts: 423
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Post by weiler on Aug 6, 2020 11:25:38 GMT -5
I had the same concerns about stoning the hammer to reduce the engagement surface without a jig/fixture. What I tried worked well. I put the hammer in a small vice with the face to be stoned parallel to the top of the jaws and protruding the amount you want to remove. Then you just file/stone down to the jaw. Remove the hammer and touch up the edges then test in the gun. Go in small increments until you get it like you want. If your vise jaws are not flat or even just stone them first to get them flat. I really like this method, I had thought about using a small vise as a guide but angling the hammer and using the edge of the vise as a guide. . . your way seems much more consistent!
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weiler
.30 Stingray
Posts: 423
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Post by weiler on Aug 6, 2020 11:31:48 GMT -5
45dragoon, I think reducing the sear engagement with a set screw below the ledge is an excellent method, ...much better than stoning off the nose to my mind. Being able to back up when you have gone too skinny with your engagement is priceless. Also, though they do not seem to be common problems, it eliminates the possibility of creating trigger kickback or failing to raise the transfer bar enough to function. Unfortunately, I don't have the means to do the D&T and don't know anyone that does. So, I have been reducing mine by adding a too-thick pad of JB Weld below the ledge and filing it down until I am satisfied with the engagement. I have been doing this for several years and on numerous guns without issue but I just don't trust it enough to use it on "serious" guns, only toys. 45dragoon, would you mind sharing how you install a set screw, ...pictures maybe? I would love to learn how to install a set screw myself or find someone to do the D&T for me. Anybody out there that does this? This is another interesting idea, I could see an issue with the screw coming out of adjustment, necessitating a teardown and re-adjustment (albeit simple). Lock-tite would help I suppose. The JB-Weld idea is interesting and would certainly work, but on a "semi-permanent" basis. I have a copy of the Kuhnhausen book, all I could find regarding trigger work (outside of replacing springs) was to replace the trigger/hammer with a set from power custom. I'll also add that book has a lot of stuff packed on each page so I could have missed other info. I probably have the drill/tap tools I need from flintlock work/touch hole liner installation, but a flat lock plate or octagonal barrel flat seems like its a different ball game than a stainless Ruger hammer. appreciate all the insight and ideas from everyone.
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Post by bradshaw on Aug 6, 2020 12:18:29 GMT -5
"I probably have the drill/tap tools I need from flintlock work/touch hole liner installation, but a flat lock plate or octagonal barrel flat seems like its a different ball game than a stainless Ruger hammer...” ----weiler
*****
Indeed, your drill & tap will find 4140 carbon steel and 416 stainless selected and heat treated by Ruger quite a bit tougher than steels used for black powder.
As for a fine trigger job on a Ruger single action, whether it has no discernible take-up or, dead smooth take-up for a larger contact patch, I see no need of an engagement screw to complicate the works. Certainly don't want to experience vibration induced disengagement in the field.
And, a make or break question: is the screw adjusted on the assembled gun?
Since the Revolver category of IHMSA specified a factory stock revolver----allowing only for a trigger job with factory parts and an aftermarket stock finished to a standard pattern (example: Pachmayr)----custom clockwork never set any records, nor factored in the thousands of trophies collected through the barrel of a factory revolver. David Bradshaw
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weiler
.30 Stingray
Posts: 423
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Post by weiler on Aug 17, 2020 18:45:01 GMT -5
giving it a go! ]
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Post by RDW on Sept 27, 2020 15:02:33 GMT -5
***** Weiler.... good photos of Ruger New Model sear-to-dog interface. Detail of TRIGGER SEAR in HAMMER FULL COCK NOTCH (photo #3) shows very generous CONTACT PATCH of sear against full cock dog. I’m not sure about the angles illustrated; has contact angle of sear and/or dog been touched since it left the factory? Ruger angles incline to engage, a principle Ruger described as REGAIN. If regain is lost, full cock inclines to disengage. This is easily detected with gentle accumulation of pressure on the trigger: at hammer fall the trigger remains stationary or kicks forward. Some feel it as trigger bounce. That is a fugitive trigger, certain to deteriorate in use. Ruger heat treatment takes a backseat to no other, and this is certainly true of Ruger hammers & triggers. A trigger job on poor metal deteriorates quick. A fugitive trigger job on poor metal melts like snow in a blast furnace. It is difficult, nearly impossible to measure the depth of the hammer notch with a caliper. A jig which locates the hammer blows measurement by indicator. Various smaiths have made such jigs and I would-be’t be surprised if fellows such s Jim Clark, Sr., Ron Power, and Ronnie Wells have made such fixtures. I don’t have such a jig. It is less important to know notch depth than to understand the REGAIN principle to to recognize proper engagement. “One size fits all” does not fit revolver stocks, nor trigger pulls. To go light requires an imperturbable trigger finger. A breathing mind. David Bradshaw A good jig goes a long way David. I have made a few to help bug out trigger and hammer geometry. Being able to see it in motion makes all the difference in the world for me!
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dhd
.327 Meteor
Posts: 941
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Post by dhd on Sept 28, 2020 7:21:47 GMT -5
Man what a jig. I take it that like the grip frame screw consistency on NM RBH's, the hammer/trigger pin locations are very consistent too? That jig is one heck of a learning tool for folks who want to know how it all works.
I'm usually humbled by others that invent a well functioning tool and the thought processes involved.
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Post by contender on Sept 28, 2020 9:00:25 GMT -5
That jig,, showing an OM action,, with a OM trigger & hammer laying on the side,, but a different trigger in the actual action got my attention quickly. Is this a different trigger design you are working on Ronnie?
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