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Post by mike454 on May 15, 2020 18:16:31 GMT -5
If the S&W 500 would of been on the market before the 500 Linebaugh the Linebaugh would of never been invented. Simply no reason for the odd ball bullet diameter. In the mid '80s .500 was the odd ball and .510 was the American standard. How times have changed.
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Post by 98redline on May 19, 2020 10:44:46 GMT -5
By the same token if S&W would have adopted the .510 bore for their 500 S&W the 500 JRH might not exist.
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Post by RDW on May 19, 2020 13:49:51 GMT -5
By the same token if S&W would have adopted the .510 bore for their 500 S&W the 500 JRH might not exist. I talked to the guys at smith and wesson in the early 2000s about this very subject while Retrofitting cnc machinery with new controls.( SpringFeild MA.) I was told in short that the following is what happened! Which verified to me what i thought at the time. The 50 Action Express was the beginning of a huge mess on what was considered 50 Cal. in the Late 80s. This is an exert from wiki on why it happened that verbalizes or sums up what i learned in the early ninetys. I of course was Pissed, because to me at that time was a big fan of the 50 cal, and i had a sizable interest in bullets , barrel stock,and was just used to 50 being .510! We (America) at that time had a regime change at the top that lets just say, were on the wrong side of the second ammendment and more than willing to take a major stab at our cultural and historical rights! In other words. More Jack wagons in DC that do not know or understand the things that they legislate on, However they did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so they have all become experts. Haha. (US laws state that non -sporting firearms may not be over 0.500" in bore diameter (measured land to land) to meet Title I regulations. The original .50 Action Express bore diameter was .510" with conventional rifling, but the switch to polygonal rifling on production Desert Eagles allowed the gauge plug to drop through, rendering the gun a destructive device under Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) regulations. Nominal bullet diameter was reduced to the current 0.500 inch (12.7 mm) rather than the original .510"[4] – thus the noticeably tapered case.) Quote from wiki If they wood have gone with standard rifling practices we would not have ever seen it.( my opinion, Not the word of GOD!) Evan Whildin of Action Arms is claimed to be the inventor of the 50AE in 1988. But i believe polygonal rifling was what set the whole process in motion. I was told at S&W that had we not seen the intro of the AE, the smith would have been .510. If conventional rifling would have been guaged , it probably would have hung on to it better and the tight lands would have grabbed it. I tested this theory on some nice Douglas blank i had which was for linebaugh and found that .498 was snug and .499 would not pass. As i stated. Not the word of God but a pretty good description of a chain of events that unfolded here that in my opinion were exploited out of ignorance of the opposition. And gave them a new found foothold on something else trivial that they could hang their hat on. And once again ruining a good thing! So Yes Redline, i totally agree!
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Post by RDW on May 19, 2020 14:53:06 GMT -5
If the S&W 500 would of been on the market before the 500 Linebaugh the Linebaugh would of never been invented. Simply no reason for the odd ball bullet diameter. When Ross seyfried introduced John Linebaughs new Monster to the world i dont think smith and wesson would have even considered anything north of the model 29 which they always saw flying off the shelf. Everytime Ole Dirty Harry made a new movie. LOL instant six month backlog for N frames! Then came the massive Redhawk in 1979. Oh my goodness the cannons that could be rendered out of that Masterpeice. Built like a Steel locomotive. Then of course there was a movie called Alienation with james cann and Mandy Patinkin. Here we go again with Ole Dickie boys (May He Rest In Peace)( My Hero) beastarilla that was considered only for those of a non sound mind like myself LOL, or just needing to mow the crap out of something with a handgun. It was a gorilla and still is. Cannon rechambered some redhawks in 454, which in turn i just had to try. Haha ,Boy was that a disturbing difference in comparison to my model 29s which soon started collecting DUST ON THE SHELF. However as i stated in my former post And mike 454 is spot on, at the time that the linebaugh came out .510 was the 50 cal! So realistically as far as a timeline goes. John linebaugh gave nutbags like me, a new dose or fix of , OH I GOTTA HAVE ONE, OR 20. HAHA. If smith would have been on the market before the linebaugh it would have been earlier that the 1986 and would have been a .510! The Oddball was .500! But not anymore. Now we have gobs of .500 bullets. So as Max said, Have both. They are both fabulous. However john would have still built the 500L for the shorter Frames and it still would be just as fabulous a round as it is today. One of my fondest memories of enlightenment and encouragement was that day after a good swim i sat down to a new issue of Guns and ammo. August of 1986 to be exact. 500 Magnum The 'outer limits' of Handgun Power! By Ross Seyfried. And here is a blue Rugeroni Bismatazoa with the Gapingest HOLE in the Barrel and two empty cylinder chambers with light coming in from behind i have ever seen. 3 live rounds, two bullets, one empty and an empty parent 348 winchester shell. I TRULY LOST MY MIND! The very next hour there was a 1979 Super blackhawk tore completely apart on my kitchen table under severe measuring scrutiny. I just had to have one. I had a working model within a month however it took me another couple of months or so to completely figure out how to do it and complete my tooling package and acquire a Bisley grip frame. Thank goodness for a friend who ran out and bought one ( A Bisley in 44 )and didnt like it, who also agreed to let me swap grip frames with him. Couldnt talk him out of the hammer though so i cut the back off of it so he could use it on his new conventional grip frame. I just had to use my SBH Hammer and its still on there today. By January or February of 87 i was choppin up 348 shells. Hahaha. It was my first 500L. A year later it got my first Brass Bisley Grip Frame. It is still my Favorite.
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Post by whitworth on May 19, 2020 16:15:45 GMT -5
Ah yes, but the .500 Linebaugh has been playing second fiddle to the .475 Linebaugh since the .475’s birth. Consequently, the .475 (in my opinion) has been developed more. From the start the .500 should have been loaded with heavier bullets....but I digress. I am working on a project that will bring the .500 Linebaugh into a new realm....and that’s all I’m going to say about that... :-)
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Post by RDW on May 19, 2020 16:42:18 GMT -5
Ah yes, but the .500 Linebaugh has been playing second fiddle to the .475 Linebaugh since the .475’s birth. Consequently, the .475 (in my opinion) has been developed more. From the start the .500 should have been loaded with heavier bullets....but I digress. I am working on a project that will bring the .500 Linebaugh into a new realm....and that’s all I’m going to say about that... :-) Oh Ya! Definitively agree. The 500L was such a cannon ball launcher that we just figured it was as Ross said ' the outer limits of handgun power'. But we found out differently huh? Then came the 475 and it just seemed to do as well in the feild, and with some of the people i talked with in those days figured it had enough power to part the red sea and you had more meat in the cylinder to contain it. So i believe everyone started pressuring it up and wow. It will really foot the bill! I had a few buds in the day that would not shoot my 500s because it looked scary to them. Giant holes in the cylinder. But my 475s were ok. Haha. Whatever! I loved them both. However the market seemed to advance more to the 475 and it has indeed been developed more. I never had the problems with heavy Bullets in the 500. And when i say heavy i meant in excess of 500 gr. However when i built my first with douglas stock it was an 8 groove 1/15 twist For an M2. Haha. Hey they had it on the shelf and i will take it. I built a Redhawk with a 1/20 and found several keyholed targets above 470 gr if they werent set on KILL with 296 or h110. I have had great luck with pacnor 1/18 and 525s though. My maxes love 1680 and 525s. That being said cant wait to see what you do there brother. Anything to keep an old favorite rolling!
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Post by bigbrowndog on May 19, 2020 16:55:10 GMT -5
I refer to the 50’s as “true half inch guns” for the .500’s, and “true fifty calibers” for the .510’s. Since our 50 Winchester’s and Sharps and Browning’s are actually .510’s
Trapr
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Post by flyingzebra on May 19, 2020 17:10:38 GMT -5
... 0.500" in bore diameter (measured land to land) ... Groove to Groove -- bullet diameter. I recall the time period. I think they were trying to class the BMG out of civilian existence with it's 510
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Post by RDW on May 19, 2020 17:13:35 GMT -5
I refer to the 50’s as “true half inch guns” for the .500’s, and “true fifty calibers” for the .510’s. Since our 50 Winchester’s and Sharps and Browning’s are actually .510’s Trapr Ya Buddy. I like it. Works for me. I have had what i considered to be old timers in the game called em 51s. One of those fellas had a Henry collection and more spencer rifles than i thought had ever been made. He loved black Powder guns. He is actually the one that got the Douglas 50 cal m2 blank for me in my previous post. Hes been gone now for some time. Sure miss him. He was actually no kidding on the Detroit uss (Cl-8) during the attack on pearl. Manned a machine gun in his underwear. What a Stud He was. R
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Post by snakereaper on May 19, 2020 17:15:34 GMT -5
Ah yes, but the .500 Linebaugh has been playing second fiddle to the .475 Linebaugh since the .475’s birth. Consequently, the .475 (in my opinion) has been developed more. From the start the .500 should have been loaded with heavier bullets....but I digress. I am working on a project that will bring the .500 Linebaugh into a new realm....and that’s all I’m going to say about that... :-) You are killing me . Cant wait to see what u got in store.
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Post by RDW on May 19, 2020 17:44:40 GMT -5
... 0.500" in bore diameter (measured land to land) ... Groove to Groove -- bullet diameter. My point exactly Flying Zebra!' Doesnt make much since does it? They say land to land and it should be groove to groove. Cuz if it was truly land to land like a conventionally rifled barrel then Old school 50 (.510) would be within in spec.(.500) When they drop a .500 guage in to a normally rifled barrell that is .510 to the groove it would normally be .499 to .500 on the land and it would usually grab the guage and pass the test. I think what was explained to me was that with polygonal rifling if it was a .510, the groove was .510 corner to corner, but the land was between .502 to .504 because the line is now straight across to the other groove and the guage would just fall through and whoever the bonehead was rating weather or not the size was legal would not sway. So they just said to heck with it and we will make it .500 to the groove and be done with it. If you swell a 50AE. case out straight, it will except a .510 bullet. However i have Reamed me a dozen or so 50AE cylinders and because of that taper, man do they come out nice and smooth! Now if i could just get the fifth shot to not have jumped out of the darn case .050 thousandths and not fly off to mars, i would be a lot happier about that cal in a revolver. hahaha. Taper crimpin just aint as good. Ive tried glue. Ive even thought about choppin up a Lee factory crimp die with spots cut out so that it leaves a little surface to touch and hold at the case face in the chamber but then i couldnt shoot it in my autos or maybe just doit and fire and forget. Either way id still have to taper crimp first. Anybody had that trouble here with 50Ae in Revolvers? Always open for ideas.
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Post by RDW on May 19, 2020 17:48:34 GMT -5
... 0.500" in bore diameter (measured land to land) ... Groove to Groove -- bullet diameter. I recall the time period. I think they were trying to class the BMG out of civilian existence with it's 510 YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD POINT SIR, VERY GOOD POINT!!!!! That is probably why so much trouble and it was all hidden agenda. Make the rules so complicated we will just throw in the towel. Hahaha they dont know us very well do they!
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Post by flyingzebra on May 19, 2020 18:01:51 GMT -5
... Ive even thought about choppin up a Lee factory crimp die with spots cut out so that it leaves a little surface to touch and hold at the case face in the chamber... I like this. Nothing wrong with trying that. I've been running the 10mm auto in a heat treated 17-4 cylinder to the point where I'd like to try a Lee Factory Crimp die, might try this myself.
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Post by flyingzebra on May 19, 2020 18:07:48 GMT -5
That is probably why so much trouble and it was all hidden agenda. Make the rules so complicated we will just throw in the towel. Hahaha they dont know us very well do they! It all ends up screwing the fun sporting projects, like 577 revolvers. Of course they *can* be done, but with "Special Permission from the Crown", taxes, paperwork etc
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Post by firedude on May 19, 2020 21:53:04 GMT -5
Ah yes, but the .500 Linebaugh has been playing second fiddle to the .475 Linebaugh since the .475’s birth. Consequently, the .475 (in my opinion) has been developed more. From the start the .500 should have been loaded with heavier bullets....but I digress. I am working on a project that will bring the .500 Linebaugh into a new realm....and that’s all I’m going to say about that... :-) BFR? I will be standing by credit card at the ready.
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