David Bradshaw Photos Vol. 106 - The New Colt Python

[Lee Martin]

David sharing a conversation he had with Jerry Moran on the new Colt Python:
________________________________________________________________________________



Jerry Moran: "Bolt works off front of trigger. Bolt is a little, hollow POS. Looks to me like transfer bar works off hammer. Can’t see where it hooks up; appears too hammer. Double-step hand."

DB: That looks like an S&W stop. The pawl has a big-ass notch; you call that a 2-step? Trigger has shallow radius, no hump at top to keep finger from contacting frame. Looks like it could pinch finger on rebound.

JM: Cylinder can roll in a way the real Python cannot.

DB: Crotch of V-leaf mainspring has a curve, not V. What’s that about?

JM: That’s so mainspring doesn’t contact itself..... trigger on new Python pivots center. Old Python has front pivot.... old Python hammer & trigger were cold extrusion----extruded from bar stock----very popular way to make parts way back when. Ground to a thickness. Top part of hammer heated, formed in forge. Don’t know how new Python hammer & trigger made..... Don’t like the sight; I like a flat back. Python hammer and trigger aren’t very hard.

DB: Everybody else has learned how to make a flat-back rear sight. Even though some still wear their head in the sand.

JM: Williams Gun Sight Company went around claiming they invented the old King Sight.... If you’re a creative type, you have to be satisfied you helped put something out there that’s really useful to people.

DB: The bar that resets the trigger looks different....

JM: The lever. They call it the LEVER. Similar to Python, but, of course, the trigger is different....

DB: Analogous in Smith & Wesson to the rebound slide----resets the trigger.

JM: Same job.... Fitting the hand is a pretty tricky job. That’s a part they’ d like have a ‘drop-in.’ .... I’m a big believer.... I want the bolt to DROP! The bolt has to drop fast to shoot it fast. I did bolts 72 Rockwell. Did one for JD Jones.

DB: the stop----aka bolt----looks spring-loaded from the front, ala S&W.... The stirrup connecting mainspring to hammer looks larger than on old Python.

JM: Cylinder in older guns----after 1978----rides on frame. Before that cylinder rode on yoke. The frames aren’t friggin hard. And on the new one that frame support for the cylinder looks little rough.... You can shoot more accurate than a Ransom Rest.I won’t argue this with anybody. I’ve shot hellish groups on turkeys----165 yards----the turkeys were my game; try that with a Ransom Rest.... 22 lbs recoil and people just clamp the rest?! And rams, with the .357 you just train the bullets high on the rump to kill those ringers! I mean, less power, you’ve got to shoot straight.... the game has died down.

DB: How do you hold?

JM: I see light [6 o’clock] as I squeeze, as I put pressure----the tender part of your finger----a real small crease, linear, you got to pull straight back. I think single action shooting long range is totally individual. If you’re staring down there more than 7 seconds you have to blink.... you can’t overhold your eyes.... you know this stuff.... elimination of light between sight and target at hammer fall.

DB: 6 o’clock lets you see target, puts target in mind----in the present----but light between sight and target is a killer. Light changes continuously, your elevation changes with it----deadly to vertical.

JM: I close the light as I squeeze.

DB: You’re bold.... what’s your sight picture for your rump shot. If the ram faces left, where is your blade, the plane of your front sight?

JM: Touch the belly, the right side of the sight covers the leg.

DB: You must overhang it. Got to for a rump shot. The sight is 2 feet wide @ 200 meters, width of the ram. How wide do you see your Python sight @ 220 yards?

JM: That’s right, covers the target; overhang rump shot.

[contender]

Great picture & detailed discussion on the innards there. Thanks!

[bradshaw]

Tyrone.... thank Lee for posting.

Jerry Moran called to discuss the new Python. Moran is a wizard of the Colt Python. Naturally intrigued with its reincarnation. Won’t say “revival" or "rebirth,” as they are not the same gun. I will include more of our conversations.
David Bradshaw

[potatojudge]

The biggest functional difference I see is the bolt. In the original the rebound lever was responsible for working the bolt, pushing the pawl forward, and resetting the trigger. The tail of the bolt and it's relationship to the back side of the rebound lever, the triangular bit of voodoo, was never a drop in proposition. I for one am glad to see that go. This leaves two functions of the rebound lever, both powered by the lower arm of the V (U?) spring and make the part drop in capable. The bolt looks straight out of a S&W now- simple, direct, and tested though it looks like the portion that protrudes from the frame is missing in this picture?

The parts appear cast and the aesthetic of the iconic hammer spur is lost.

Whatever the safety mechanism in this is hard to see. The old Positive safety mechanism was obscured by the hammer as well.

[needsmostuff]

Feb 5, 2020 10:38:41 GMT -5 potatojudge said:

The tail of the bolt and it's relationship to the back side of the rebound lever, the triangular bit of voodoo, was never a drop in proposition. I for one am glad to see that go.

Hear , hear.
I have played with them and voodoo involved for sure.

[bradshaw]

Python talk with Jerry Moran, cont’d, 5 Feb 2020

DB: The MIM (Metal Injection Molding) are a mystery. Why? Is it because they’ve gotten so good, yet remain tainted with the brush of failure?

Jerry Moran: I’m going to get one of those guns [Python 2020], I know I can make it better. Hammer & trigger; mainspring strut----Colt calls it a link; double action fly. ....Notch in hammer; bolt----that’s a MIM part----I still think it’s a weak link with that piece hanging out there. Ron Power called yesterday. Ron says, “Those MIM parts just do not hold up.” I’m sure it’s in the heat treatment [no clarification]. Mim parts for cars don’t do so well: actuators, tiny valves, vanes, pieces chip off. I’m not in [the loop] nowadays. Little parts have some pretty serious strength to em.

Like investment casting, it’s all in the material you put in.Some processes however prove long distance as Bill Ruger established.I want to see some destruction tests, longevity, stress. It’s rocket science all right. But voodoo science until tested.... really tested. As in. ‘You made it too cheap when you bid for the part.’ Some people are sales people, the part or structure gets explained to them.... they then talk like they know, talking shallow

First wire EDM [Electron Discharge Machining] machine was invented in Russia in 1956....

DB: Do you see this technology in many guns?

JM: No, and it alarms me.

DB: Makes you wonder how many parts are farmed.

JM: Colt came out with a couple of small revolvers they didn’t make. According to Ron Power, Charter Arms built first stainless revolvers for Colt.... Ron pretty disgusted with the Ruger Wrangler, “Not Ruger not Ruger!”

Dimensional continuity. It’s all rocket science. It’s all in the attitude. Good enough to get through 5 acres isn’t good enough for 150 acres. You learn early not to put stuff together half-ass.

JM: Reason for Ron Power’s anguished attitude toward MIM parts is he’s working on them and sees those parts sweeping across the industry.

David Bradshaw

[bradshaw]

Feb 5, 2020 10:38:41 GMT -5 potatojudge said:

The biggest functional difference I see is the bolt. In the original the rebound lever was responsible for working the bolt, pushing the pawl forward, and resetting the trigger. The tail of the bolt and it's relationship to the back side of the rebound lever, the triangular bit of voodoo, was never a drop in proposition. I for one am glad to see that go. This leaves two functions of the rebound lever, both powered by the lower arm of the V (U?) spring and make the part drop in capable. The bolt looks straight out of a S&W now- simple, direct, and tested though it looks like the portion that protrudes from the frame is missing in this picture?

The parts appear cast and the aesthetic of the iconic hammer spur is lost.

Whatever the safety mechanism in this is hard to see. The old Positive safety mechanism was obscured by the hammer as well.

*****

Read your take on the lever, etc., to Jerry Moran; let’s continue from here....

Jerry Moran: Potatojudge understands it, but he doesn’t see the long tail on the stop [not visible in photo]. Bolt on Python 2020 is a MIM part. Some people 2-stage, jerk the trigger to accelerate cylinder, hesitating before hammer fall. Cylinder slams to a stop, against the stop. Hard on stop.

DB: The Colt submits to a 2-stage pull. Second stage the cylinder has stopped rotating, basically a single action pull for hammer fall. Chamber alignment wedged between pawl and bolt [stop].

JM: A lot of PPC shooters take that route, 2-staging. Last triggers I put on Pythons were 416 stainless. 416 sheet stainless, you can get that at different formulations; more tungsten, harder to cut.

DB: Do you have a handle on forcing cones in the old Pythons?

JM: Forcing cone original Python 5-degree. Most of the Pythons I got I lapped the forcing cone. Special cutting lube, green stuff. Polishing, slippery, works really good. 1-1/4” - 1-1/2” groups @ 50 yards. Hit turkeys junction leg & body, shot after shot. [Turkeys are shot @ 165 yards.]

7-degree cone----most I opened to .360”. Standard more like .380” our bigger; depends on gun.

DB: .360-inch root diameter of cone gives no wiggle room for chamber offset with .357/.358 bullet.

JM: Yeah, that’s close.

DB: Do you think the new barrel starts as a drop forging?

JM: Don’t know. I have a 12-inch Python barrel, made at Colt with extruded stock. Paid a $100 or $150 for it. Called Colt----"Yeah,” I was told, "there are a few 12” Python barrels floating around. Made at Colt illegally by an engineer who probably won’t be around much longer.”

People who don’t know how to work on something.... if you can’t write down what happens between hammer fall and bullet gone.... if you can’t lay out what happens, put your tools away.. Don’t mess with it.

Guys were making big ugly PPC revolvers. and the 10-inch twist... Many didn’t shoot any better than a factory Python. The 1:14 is ideal. This difference is in recovery. That fat barrel just stays there and you squeeze your next shot. Python just as accurate, my guns proved it. Just moves more. 6 shots in 12 seconds. These guys were shooting subsonic going out the barrel. Once people saw the 1:14 twist worked the 1:10 hoopla wore off. Bill Davis put Python barrels on Smiths and Rugers. He called them Smolts and Cougars. We’re at the Dan Wesson, Bill Jordan walks up [holding his Bill Davis M-19 with python barrel], grinning, "That’ll hit the bullseye every time!”

Bill Davis says, “What? I made that [M-19 with Python barrel] to shoot ping pong balls!” [Reference, of course, to Bill Jordan’s fast draw demonstration: ping pong ball on the back of his hand; draws and fires his Model 19, ping pong drops in holster.----DB]

I could never go to a match where someone didn’t interrupt me on the firing line or behind the firing line... You know what that’s about... You got a gun that shoots and you’re shootin it and people want it to rub off.

DB: Do you know the origin of the Python?

JM: The look of the Python may originate with the King Sight Bull Barrel Officer’s Model with vent barrel. The whole thing with rib and underlug. Although Dan Wesson came later, it’s important to remember the slotted interchangeable front sight came from Dan Wesson.

DB: What’s the dope on your GP-100?

JM: I liked the Security-Six and told Bill Ruger 'Let’s work on it.’ It’s an ugly gun. Those Security-Sixes were cheap. The ones they made for the Navy were super-slick. O God, they were unbelievable. I said, ‘Does the thing even go off?’ The Navy Security-Six was double action only. You can make a double action smoother. No single action to deal with.

DB: I shot a pair of first generation S&W .40 S&W autos; stainless slides, aluminum frames. One SA/DA, the other double action only. I liked the DA only better, palpably smoother. Later on, when Beretta made the 92 in DA only, it was smoother than the Model 92 SA/DA.

JM: Made two of those GP-100’s, the other one for Lee Jurras.

DB: I thought JD Jones....

JM: [Laughs] No, no. The other was for Lee Jurras.

DB: Did you weld, or make new hammer and triggers?

JM: No. I worked on trigger return and bolt drop for smooth, uninterrupted action straight through. Smooth lifting hammer.... I can measure with trigger gauge----electronic trigger gauge---resistance in finger on trigger. The shortest action you can build coming out of Ruger is the GP-100 .44 Special 5-shot. Transfer bar totally covers firing pin and beyond. Timing ramps up early in GP-100 .44 Spl. I had the 5-lug, no longer made, the blued gun. They didn’t carry 5-inch. My GP-100 .44 Special is 5-inch.

.... Just a little more engineering.... because the GP-100 is easier for most people to shoot to hold.

The trigger guard fits tight on GP-100. That GP-100 .44 Spl., I almost decided not to work on it. It shot nice.... Squeeze trigger, can’t feel anything lifting hammer, just squeeze the trigger through. No difference except hand engagement fits tight, almost no lateral movement of hand. Same double action length of pull, but I shortened the hammer arc. Ron Power tells me, ‘Next time, bring your GP-100 over.’

DB: How about barrel threads?

JM: GP-100 and K-frame Smith are threaded 32 Threads Per Inch x 9/16”. As for the Python, I don’t know what happened when. Older Pythons, I’m thinking 40 TPI x 9/16”. The stainless Legacy is 32 x 9/16. The 40 thread is easier to time. 40 TPI equals .025” per revolution, .025 per 360-degrees.

DB: Actually, it’s simple arithmetic to calculate thread timing. For instance, how much the barrel shoulder has to be trimmed to correct a barrel which hand-tightens 30-degtrees BTDC, down to a level that doesn’t cause a compression ring, say 10 or 12-degrees BTDC. But I see your point, to calculate on a production basis.

JM: I’ve encountered tapered threads in Python frame, the 9/16” hole .562" at the barrel end; .545” at the breech end. When you start the barrel it wiggles, then firms up. Got to be sure the barrel matches the frame threads. A Python barrel with 40 TPI x 9/16 can’t be used on a Smith or Ruger, nor on a Python that doesn’t match.
David Bradshaw

[bradshaw]

Just added (above) to talk with Jerry Moran, inspired by the Python 2020. While Jerry has yet to shoot the new gun, his experience as a top Python mechanic, known throughout the industry, and a main instigator of IHMSA silhouette, not to mention All-American revolver shooter, positions him to evaluate a revolver from the inside out. Jerry has taken me to party with rough & tumble auto workers in Detroit, loaned me a Python to bang steel with the same foundry animals in the freezing Michigan winter, where coffee was more important to thaw your trigger finger than to drink. The Rugers respected Jerry for his in-your-face challenge to inferior design and gunsmithing, becoming fast friends with Bill Ruger, Jr. They would talk metal lingo, the Hardware World, yet always in a language I could understand.

Jerry’s Scottish red hair has turned white. Not to worry, it still glows RED when he sees a wrong needs to be made right.
David Bradshaw

[wheelguns]

Great writeup Mr Bradshaw! Thanks!

[bradshaw]

Feb 6, 2020 10:21:48 GMT -5 wheelguns said:

Great writeup Mr Bradshaw! Thanks!

*****

wheelguns.... thank you for the kind words. A note on Moran’s tuning the GP-100: he did not alter the metallurgy of Ruger hammer & trigger. Careful stone work with shooting for subtle tuning of camming action of trigger to raise hammer.

My objection to adopting the S&W cylinder stop for the "Python 2020” (Moran’s term to distinguish from Legacy Python), is twofold, and it is huge:

1) The current S&W stop replaced the “4-screw” S&W----recognized by a screw at the front of the trigger guard. The screw secures a coil spring and rod that loads the cylinder stop. It was a mistake for S&W to eliminate the captured coil & plunger, as it is a better arrangement for holding the stop in the cylinder stop notch----which weakness revealed itself as CYLINDER FLOAT in the Model 29. The stop spring, as faithfully adopted by Colt, sits in a cramped space without a guide rod or channel to prevent kinking.

2) The long tail on the Python 2020 stop (a.k.a. bolt) exposes the part to play & stress, as noted by Jerry Moran. Equally negative, the long tail represents an inertia lever, which may prevent the stop from following the revolver’s rise on recoil. Among all double action cylinder stops, the Redhawk/SRH is the strongest, and most stable.

In my experience. the original Colt Python bolt provides plenty up up-force to lock the cylinder. When checking out a revolver, I depress the stop with my trigger finger; it’s one of the first things I do.
David Bradshaw

[contender]

THis type of detailed discussions is why I truly enjoy this Forum.

While I doubt I'll ever get the chance to own another Python,, I do appreciate any & all discussions into the background, behind the scenes, the mechanics etc of ALL handguns.

Excellent postings!

[ericp]

Wonderful discussion between two extremely knowledgeable people. Fantastic information, thank you for sharing it.


Eric

[bradshaw]

Feb 6, 2020 21:52:02 GMT -5 ericp said:

Wonderful discussion between two extremely knowledgeable people. Fantastic information, thank you for sharing it.


Eric

*****

Eric.... thank you for the kind words. Among things learned on the Firing Line, there is a lot to learn about a firearm that a conventionally outlined “test” does not cover. Haven’t even had my hands on a Python 2020-[/i]---borrowing lingo from Jerry Moran, whom also says, “They’re calling the early Pythons Legacy Pythons.”

Don’t know whether he means 1950’s guns, or later, or all Pythons made until a certain date, or all Pythons made previous to 2020.

Since learning a bit about guns designed by John Moses Browning I've wondered why he didn’t design a revolver. If he did, it’s a well kept secret. Did he have no regard for revolvers? Was he too busy with other mechanisms to contemplate the revolver concept? Did he think Colt and/or Smith & Wesson had carried the revolver to its mechanical conclusion? I suspect Browning saw in the revolver both antiquity and, in Smith & Wesson and Colt double actions, brilliant design work.

Living with the mid-to-late 20th century Smith & Wesson double action gave me to realize what a complete instrument it is. Some feel the same way about the Colt Python and its forebears. These guns strike me as DESIGNED AROUND THE TRIGGER, and I’ll put my copyright on that phrase right now. Yet, trigger pull is meaningless without RELIABILITY, DURABILITY, ACCURACY. To live with a revolver discerns these qualities.

A double action revolver is hugely about the TRIGGER, SA & DA. To this shooter, a revolver made today must show improvement over the 20th Century masterpieces. Sales pitch evaporates on the Firing Line.
David Bradshaw[/b]

[bradshaw]

Note: my reply to Eric became an uncorrectable runaway train of bold and italics.
David Bradshaw

[alukban]

Doggone but I wish you did video postings as well David!