Fire Dragon Dual Action Buffer Spring System

[nonpcnrarn]

I don't usually post in 2 different places but thought this might be a better place than "Other Handgns". I bought a Fire Dragon Dual Action Spring System to replace the stock recoil spring, guide rod and plug in my 5" Springfield Milspec 1911. It is a drop in system of a full length rod with a outer 16# spring and in the breech end of the rod is a hollow part of the rod holding a smaller spring that acts like a shock absorber for the last 1/8" of rearward slide travel. This last bit of travel is under extreme resistance, which should reduce battering. The part is supposed to be drop in which it is but the outer 16# spring is 6 7/8", 7/8" longer than the stock Springfield Milspec 16# spring which is 6" long. This makes compressing the spring and plug very difficult long enough to rotate the bushing back into place. When I rack the slide the last 1/8" of movement is extremely difficult to pull back to lock it into place with the action open. So I took it apart and used the shorter 16# Milspec spring. Rotating the bushing back into place with the spring and plug compressed is easier but I still have trouble with the last 1/8" of retracting the slide to lock the action open. From what I understand this is normal indicating that the increased resistance to prevent slide battering takes place in the last 1/8" of travel. I know springs can have the same weight rating while being of different lengths, number of coils and wire size, etc. Now my questions. Should one spring work as well as the other, since they are both 16# springs? Has anyone used this product before which I believe is similar to the Sprinco product that does the same thing? I have asked this question on 2 1911 forums and either got no answer or a sarcastic one saying I should have just used a higher rated recoil spring (18.5#). I could have done that but then you have increased slide velocity and battering when the slide moves forward into battery. Also, IIRC increasing recoil spring rate usually requires a stronger firing pin spring to keep inertia from causing the pin to move forward firing the next round. I believe Wolf sells them in pairs so you get both springs. Has anyone here used this or the Sprinco product? It is ironic that I have to come to site called singleactions.com for an answer. I would have though someone at one of the other 1911 forums could have answered the question. The reason I went with this device is that I purchased Bufalo Bore 230 gr +P truncated cone fmj ammo to carry in the gun. It is as close as I could get to the original 45 Colt load for the Colt Model P SA from a commercial manufacturer. Any experience or insight would be appreciated.

[Gary @ R&G]

Probably not the answer your looking for but... I carry 1911's as my primary duty weapon. A 1951 Super 38 Commander and when my back isnt aching too bad a 1957 Government model. I use IMSI recoil springs in all my 5" & 4.25" guns. I know of none of the top 1911 smiths using or recommending the sprinco or other recoil reducing products. Most dont recommend shock buffs (unless they make and market it, which is one). A significant number dont recommend FLGR's except on low velocity target loads where spring bind occurs. The SA Mil spec guns are tough. Not sure you need to do much other than keep the springs fresh. God knows how many rounds have been through my Gov in 52 years but it shows no sign of recoil battering. I try to change the springs every 500 rounds or so. Probably unnecessary but $8 is cheap insurance.

[nonpcnrarn]

Dec 26, 2009 21:48:38 GMT -5 Gary @ R&G said:

Probably not the answer your looking for but... I carry 1911's as my primary duty weapon. A 1951 Super 38 Commander and when my back isnt aching too bad a 1957 Government model. I use IMSI recoil springs in all my 5" & 4.25" guns. I know of none of the top 1911 smiths using or recommending the sprinco or other recoil reducing products. Most dont recommend shock buffs (unless they make and market it, which is one). A significant number dont recommend FLGR's except on low velocity target loads where spring bind occurs. The SA Mil spec guns are tough. Not sure you need to do much other than keep the springs fresh. God knows how many rounds have been through my Gov in 52 years but it shows no sign of recoil battering. I try to change the springs every 500 rounds or so. Probably unnecessary but $8 is cheap insurance.

What kind of ammo are you using? I went to the recoil reducer because the Buffalo Bore 230 gr ammo is +P truncated cone fmj at 950 fps. I also have 2000 Penn 230 gr truncated cone cast bullets of the same Hornady design as the bullets used by BB. I was going to load them to the same velocity so I could practice with what I will be carrying. I didn't know what the added pressure would do to the gun over time. Maybe I was worried about nothing and should have gone with a 18.5# progressive recoil spring. Now all I can do is try it out against the the original set up and see if it makes any difference in recoil.

[greygt]

Be careful with the "fire dragon". I had one of these on a Colt 1911 lightweight commander (alloy frame) and a beretta 96d 40s&w. Back in the 90's. I got all sorts of hype from the manufacturer and thier sales staff when I bought them. The colt would only function (it wasn't all the time) with +p pressure ammo. And this is after claims by the manufacturer stating that it would shoot ANYTHING but light target ammo. This was far from a great reliability record for a self defense gun.
The one I had on the beretta was completely useless. It was so stiff that it would never feed a 2nd round in the chamber. When I asked the manufacturer they told me it was supposed to be stiff to protect the alloy frame. That was the reason I bought it in the first palce. I told them it does that very well. In fact I would have been better of to not buy it and just let the gun sit in the safe or sell it for all the use I was getting from it.
I tried to return them claiming they didn't work on either gun as they stated. They refused so I got a lawyer and filed a law suit against them (I know it's a small amount to go to all this hassle. But back when I got these things they were$250 a piece and I have family that is a lawyer). The manufacturer settled rather than go to court.
I eventually went with 18lb recoil springs from wolfe and/or wilson and never had a problem with my colt again. The beretta I sold as the da only trigger never clicked with me.
Good Luck

[Gary @ R&G]

In the 45 I use primarily Winchester Ranger SXT 230 gr and occasionally Federal hydra shok 185 + p. Or whatever else load my old PD is issuing and I can borrow. The SXT is listed at 990 or so FPS. I run the IMSI Chrome Silicon 18lb springs for both loads. Runs reliable with both.

I would call or email George at EGW and see what he says. George started with Behlert and has run his own shop since the early 90's. I use alot of his parts and have had him do machine work I am not comfortable trying. He is one of the premier race gun builders.

[cthulhu]

I have to second Gary's recommendation about ISMI recoil springs. They make valve springs for F1 cars and know a thing or too about making reliable/durable springs.

You are correct that high spring rate recoil springs (20-24lb+) that some recommend to buffer the slide for high intensity loads also batter the lugs/barrel feet when the slide returns to battery. Those heavy springs can also cause negative muzzle flip (muzzle dip?) that is much harder to deal with than muzzle rise.

I've never been thrilled with any of the extended guide rod/multi-spring buffer "systems" offered out there. Most are expensive, complex, and fragile yet offer little reduction at best versus the standard GI setup and often cause unreliability with lower powered ammo.

I have GI plugs and standard guide rods in all my full size and commander sized 1911s with 2 exceptions. One is bullseye setup with a FLGR that is too accurate to mess with. The other is a Colt Delta Elite 10mm which I set up to avoid battering. The stock Delta set up is plastic two piece setup with a 24lb spring rate and is designed to be disposable.

My system uses an ISMI 18lb recoil spring, a modified Cominolli "frame saver" guide rod, a wolff 26lb main spring and an EGW Flat Firing Pin stop. Those last two are the magic combination that allows you to reduce the weight of the recoil springs and the assorted side effects of installing heavy springs.

The EGW FP stop has just enough radius to break the sharp corner and prevent notching the hammer. The flat firing pin stop lowers the point of contact between the slide and the hammer, giving the hammer a higher mechanical advantage when resisting the slide's rearward travel. This delays the opening of the slide. Going to a stronger main spring magnifies this effect. This allows much lower recoil springs to be used safely without battering the gun.
I use 14lb springs with the FP stop and 23lb mainspring on my 5" GI guns for shooting 230grn hardball and haven't noticed any increased wear & tear on the gun.

If this sounds too radical, just look at original Colt 1911s made before 1918, as they all had small radius firing pin stops, 23lb mainsprings, and 14lb recoil springs. Later models had the FP stop radius modified to make it easier to retract the slide with the hammer down. Wilson Combat just recently rediscovered this trick and people have been commenting how "soft" the new CQBs and Elites shoot.

I added the Cominolli Frame saver rod in the 10mm just to hedge my bet a bit. It has two thin but tough buffers that cushion both sides of the guide rod against the frame's recoil bed. I modified it by cutting it down from full length to GI length and smoothing the end.

So far it makes my 10mm feel just a bit snappier than the standard 45ACP and I haven't noticed any battering of the parts. The flat FP stop and heavier mainspring does make it a bit harder to initially retract the slide with the hammer down, but much easier past that point than a 22+lb recoil spring. If that bothers you, just cock the hammer before charging the pistol.

I think the flat FP stop and heavier mainspring are enough to cushion the BB +P carry loads you want to use with a standard 16lb recoil spring, but you might want to start with an 18lb ISMI and see how it feels first.