svo44
.240 Incinerator
on a journey
Posts: 89
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Post by svo44 on Jun 11, 2019 20:00:28 GMT -5
i am considering swaging soft lead jacketed wadcutters (i have been using soft lead swaged wadcutters and am experiencing a lot of leading as you all would expect). i am still a fan of full wadcutters and before i give up altogether i am wanting to try this. i am starting with 45 colt (and plan to do 44 special, 38 special if the experiment goes well) my firearm of choice is FA 97 4.25 inch (which i end up cleaning after every range trip because of the leading ) thanks
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Post by AxeHandle on Jun 12, 2019 6:29:07 GMT -5
Check your diameter and velocity on those swaged lead wadcutters. I shoot 1000s a year with NO leading.
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Post by boolitdesigner on Jun 12, 2019 9:20:11 GMT -5
+1 on the above post........... Good advice!
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svo44
.240 Incinerator
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Posts: 89
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Post by svo44 on Jun 12, 2019 11:26:36 GMT -5
i will double check them, but just out of curiosity, are you shooting soft swaged lead wadcutters? what velocity are you shooting these at roughly. i would appreciate anything you can tell me about your set up mine are set flush in the cartridge and in the 700-750 range, using 4.2 of red dot at the moment and i am not confident on the velocity data but i think this is close thanks
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svo44
.240 Incinerator
on a journey
Posts: 89
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Post by svo44 on Jun 12, 2019 11:58:27 GMT -5
so here's what i measure the wadcutter is 0.452 consistently the cylinder throat is 0.451 i cannot get a pin in to measure the forcing cone (any advice here would be appreciated) the muzzle end of the barrel measures 0.444
first question: is this normal for the barrel to be that much different than the cylinder throat (end) - i can sure see how this would lead to leading
second question:which of these is the most critical measurements
as mentioned, this is a FA97 in 45 c
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svo44
.240 Incinerator
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Posts: 89
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Post by svo44 on Jun 12, 2019 13:06:48 GMT -5
ok i talked to the gunsmith, he verified that a throat diameter at the cylinder should be 0.452 not 0.451 (measured by pin and by the bullet itself). i am sending the cylinder in to be verified and enlarged ever so slightly if needed. back to the original question however, has anyone made, swaged, used a jacketed wadcutter before? i think this would solve most if not all of my issues and wonder if anyone can find something wrong with the idea?
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Post by bradshaw on Jun 12, 2019 14:54:50 GMT -5
i am considering swaging soft lead jacketed wadcutters (i have been using soft lead swaged wadcutters and am experiencing a lot of leading as you all would expect). i am still a fan of full wadcutters and before i give up altogether i am wanting to try this. i am starting with 45 colt (and plan to do 44 special, 38 special if the experiment goes well) my firearm of choice is FA 97 4.25 inch (which i end up cleaning after every range trip because of the leading ) thanks ***** Once again, we are asked to answer a question with minimal clues. Pin gaugePin gauges measure chamber throats and BORE DIAMETER, but cannot read groove diameter. A pin gauge which slides down the bore but stops at the juncture of frame and barrel shoulder, indicates a compression ring----guaranteed to produce leading. Short answerNO. I would not expect to solve a leading problem with a jacketed wadcutter. Long answer1) Slug barrel. re-index same slug and push through by hand pressure alone to check for loose or tight spots, especially a restriction inside BARREL SHOULDER to FRAME juncture. A tight spot, especially a compression ring from over-tightening, must be removed. 2) Measure groove diameter. (You measured groove diameter when you slugged the barrel----both at muzzle & forcing cone). 3) Visually check FORCING CONE for concentricity and roughness. Also, whether it is relatively shallow or very deep----shallow preferred.) 4) Fit slug on chamber exit(s)----a.k.a. throats. Exit hole should support a .452 bullet. If the hole is too tight to accept a cast .452 bullet by finger pressure, chances are good it will lead. Tight exit holes are very likely to lead, as will a rough LEADE between CHAMBER WALL and EXIT HOLE. David Bradshaw
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svo44
.240 Incinerator
on a journey
Posts: 89
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Post by svo44 on Jun 12, 2019 15:31:15 GMT -5
thanks
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nicholst55
.375 Atomic
Retired, twice.
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Post by nicholst55 on Jun 13, 2019 18:14:17 GMT -5
There is also the possibility that your bullets are being swaged down during the loading process. A too-small expander or very thick brass can cause the bullet to be swaged down in diameter as it is seated. Improper use of a Lee Factory Crimp Die can do the same thing. Measure a few bullets OD to verify that they are, indeed, .452", and then seat and crimp as normal. Then pull these bullets and measure their OD again. The results can be surprising sometimes.
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svo44
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Posts: 89
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Post by svo44 on Jun 13, 2019 19:36:00 GMT -5
i have slugged the barrel with a lead bullet (0.452). the final micrometer reading on this is 0.444. the exit of the cylinder is 0.451 (i have talked to the gunsmith at Freedom Arms and he asked me to send the cylinder back for verification and repair as needed). i can try to provide any additional information needed to help me here if i know how but.. is the difference between my bullet diameter (0.452) and the barrel (0.444) enough to cause significant leading? the forcing cone has no obvious issues and is short. if my swaged wadcutter is basically a cylinder with no lube grooves, etc would you expect a lube of any type to help here (currently these are not lubed at all but set flush to the cartridge. i am hopeful that the cylinder work will improve what i have been seeing but would appreciate any guidance here, and again, i will provide any additional information i possibly can, i am new to this process and not sure what is needed to ask these questions.
thanks for your patience and help
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Post by boolitdesigner on Jun 13, 2019 19:45:21 GMT -5
The barrel has a bore diameter (top of land to top of land which should be about 0.444") and a groove diameter (which is larger than the bore and should be about 0.452"). It looks like you have the bore diameter, but if it's the groove, you have a severely undersize barrel. You need to specify which it is.
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Post by bradshaw on Jun 13, 2019 19:57:04 GMT -5
“I have slugged the barrel with a lead bullet (0.452). the final micrometer reading on this is 0.444. the exit of the cylinder is 0.451.... is the difference between my bullet diameter (0.452) and the barrel (0.444) enough to cause significant leading?....
if my swaged wadcutter is basically a cylinder with no lube grooves, etc would you expect a lube of any type to help here (currently these are not lubed at all.... set flush to the cartridge. hanks for your patience and help.” ----svo44
*****
What? NO LUBE? A naked lead bullet will have a difficult time trying not to lead the bore, and even the chamber exits holes. No grease grooves? Time to try POWDER COAT.
As for your GROOVE DIAMETER, “0.444” sounds like a typo. Either you tighten your micrometer on the LANDS engraved into your bullet.... or, possible, you mean .454-inch. If the groove diameter is .454”, you will have an accuracy problem, and likely a leading problem. David Bradshaw
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nicholst55
.375 Atomic
Retired, twice.
Posts: 1,047
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Post by nicholst55 on Jun 13, 2019 20:16:59 GMT -5
Most swaged lead wadcutters are lubed with a 'dry' powdery lube of some sort, at least IME.
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Post by bula on Jun 14, 2019 11:50:13 GMT -5
Not sure why we're discouraging the man from trying something. Yes, solutions to shoot bare nekkid lead, but why put a thumbs down on his creativity ? I miss Speer's cupped bullets.
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svo44
.240 Incinerator
on a journey
Posts: 89
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Post by svo44 on Jun 14, 2019 14:05:10 GMT -5
yes, i know, not the smartest guy on this forum but i started out with the simple idea of making a swaged wadcutter out of lead. i've got that down and now experiencing the leading that you guys would expect (and i should have if i was more experienced). so, in the process of trying to figure out what i can do with the firearm, with the bullet i have landed on the idea of 1) finding a suitable lube that i can apply (gonna try alox mix wit wax to start with), holding the option of powder coating at arms length length for the time being (no real reason other than trying to limit the number of variables). 2) making a jacketed half or full wadcutter that seems to me, with my admittedly limited knowledge, would help with the leading (i gotta try it to know for sure) - i was asking if anyone who is reading this had any experience with these and leading. in any case, i appreciate all the info you guys have given me and take the advice as an opportunity to learn more about this entire process (which i thoroughly enjoy doing) thank you all ps what is meant by "dry powdery lube"?
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