Updated 30 Carbine/327 Federal discussion

[2 Dogs]

Ok, now the big question is will the various 314-640 designs tolerate being sized down to .309-310" and still be accurate in the 30 caliber sixguns.

I am going to send a handful of each of the 3 weights to Huey to test out.

[sheriff]

Jul 29, 2017 10:50:39 GMT -5 2 Dogs said:

Ok, now the big question is will the various 314-640 designs tolerate being sized down to .309-310" and still be accurate in the 30 caliber sixguns.

I am going to send a handful of each of the 3 weights to Huey to test out.

As per our phone conversation, the miha 314-360 design in 140solid/135hp and the 120solid/115hp will size to .3095 powder coated and pushed thru a Lee .309 size'r. Visually they show no distortion and in my custom MGM 32-20, .308 bored, contender barrel the bullets exhibit good accuracy of the bags at 100yds. I've also run an accurate molds 313-115 solid thru the .309 size'r and shot these thru my .32-20, .308 contender and had similar results with groups off the bench running an inch or less at 100yds. Have not shot them in a Ruger NM .30 carbine, but would be willing to send a dozen of each sized .309 and .311 to someone with a .30 carbine to test.

[waterboy]

If I may chime in a little. The .300 GNR and I believe the .30 Streaker are both top end .30 cal. specialty revolver rounds. From my experience it's pretty easy to get 125 gr. class bullets out at around 1900+ fps with no sticking or backset. Sometimes this takes a little finesse and that is part of the fun. The .300 GNR is .308/9" bullets typically but I have fired some 100 gr. .311 jacketed without incident or much notice. It's .308 when it leaves the bore. I have no doubt that the .300 GNR would easily punt a 135 gr. cast at 1800-1850 with ease. I have no real preference in my .32 bore size but it is a small pain to have both .308 bore guns and .311 in the pile. Especially if you are a touch lazy or time impaired like me.

With the .300 GNR in the line up one may wonder why Reeder would put money into the .321 GNR on the .357 case, btw again .308 bore. The .300 GNR was a brainchild of the last century and simply the .30 Herrett shortened to fit the OAL of a Blackhawk cylinder. It's a bit laborious to manufacture to some newbies, but not really. I think it's about the max ratio of case diameter/neck down and not have case sticking or set-back issues. The .41 Magnum is sooooo close to the .30-30 based .300 GNR that I once stuck a well greased .41 case in my .300 dies just to see. Well it stuck, very close but no cigar. The .321 on the .357 might surprise with 85-90% of the power available in the larger .300 GNR but the better case to neck-down ratio and vast availability of the .357 case. Think of it as a super duper .32-20. But I bet it's much closer to the .300 GNR in performance. I must add that sticking any .300 GNR in a closed breach gun adds about 400 fps! It's almost a different cartridge, I've even beat .30 Herrett published ballistics in the Contender. Perhaps the .321 might be a more marketable fit in the .30/.32 range with the smaller guns as well as 8-shot big ones. I'm only a cylinder and set of dies away from trying it out. Before I did that I think I'd just get a .327 cylinder though as the .300 does more than I need on that end. Plus it's a delight to mess with.

I'm setting out the wild opening up of Single-sixes for the moment. I have a .32 H&R and may one day re-caliber it. The .38 Super and .40 S&W are the two that most interest me. Before you throw a shoe at me, .40 S&W brass is so cheap and you simply seat the bullet to 10mm or longer length. The gun does not know it's not a 10mm Auto. Also the .40 S&W and 10mm both exhibit no drop in performance in the wheelgun compared to the auto, not sure why. But I digress.

I know many are against any ".32" with less than a .311 bore. The other stuff is .30 cal. right?! LOL But it's mostly moot to me as my .308 bore has shot .311's. I do think it's better to mash the .311-.314" bullets through the LEE .309" sizer before loading in my specialty guns. But it's hard to go the other way. Hence the reasoning of so many .308 bores.

[Encore64]

Was wondering if you'd chime in.

This is the stuff that has my interest these days. There is just so much to learn in the small bore camp.

My definition of small bore revolvers is 32 caliber and smaller.

Waterboy has far more experience with this realm and knows more than I do on the subject. Ditto on Fermin...

But, I'm learning fast and hope to catch the both of them one of these days.

I did get one of the first 321 GNR barrels out the door. Like Waterboy, its a 32-20 Magnum to me.

I hope to end up with one on an O.M. Single Six. If the 300 GNR is optimal in the Blackhawk, then surely the 321 GNR will hold the same title in the Single Six.

Waterboy and I have swapped items and knowledge for some years now. Just last week he helped me move forward in another small bore project.

I owe both these guys some more thanks...

[2 Dogs]

OK, in my first post in this thread, I hinted at a bit of a non traditional but field practical purpose built varmint slaying sixgun. You walnut and blue steel guys might want to have your barf bags handy....

Ok. So, we all know the Buckeyes in 32-20/32 Mag and the Blackhawk 327 as well as the 30 Carbine are not only very big sixguns, they are HEAVY and about as handy as a boat anchor. Most of you who keep up with my madness are aware that I went to great expense and effort to build a full custom high grade light weight sixgun on a mid size frame. We drilled holes in the Bisley grip frame ala Croft, we did a tapered octagon rather than a straight barrel contour, we channeled the recoil shield and in the interest of completeness we did the legal paperwork to move the serial number and lightened the frame rails as well. We even did long cylinder flutes and a special skeletonized Bisley hammer. While the sixgun itself is a marvel to behold and clearly stands among the best of the best it just didn't turn out as light as we hoped.

The fact remains, to launch the really big 135 grain class and up small bore bullets, you need a longer clylinder than a Single Six provides. The one exception might be Reeders 321 GNR but until one is built on a SS platform we can only speculate what the nose to crimp length might be available. Hence, the mid size frames and the full size frames remain the Heavy Weight class players on the prairie.

In the meantime, I got my hands on a Ruger Blackhawk that has digested some rather unfortunate loads. That is, it is bent for sure and for certain. The top strap did not give, but it is raised which oddly pulled the threaded portion of the frame back towards the breech. To fix this, I am going to have to cut that top strap so that I can blacksmith the threaded portion of the frame back to where it is straight up and down. It will be easy to know I am there, because the base pin will then fit normally. Right now, the base pin when slid in is about 1/4" lower than the breech side base pin hole. Still, getting this frame hot like that will likely call for some heat treating but that's a bridge yet to be crossed.

From there, we can do some really radical things to make this full size sixgun lighter. Since the cylinder is a 30 Carbine, there is no danger in my opinion of ever losing the top strap again, so how about just milling it out and fitting in a red dot sight base in its place? What would happen if we turned down the barrel to minimum except for say about 1/4" of barrel needed to shoulder up on the frame itself. The obvious question is, with a skinny barrel, how do you mount the ERH? Well, how bout an aluminum barrel sleeve? To keep it in place, thread the muzzle and install a muzzle brake. It's not like the 30 Carbine is known for being easy on the ears anyway. It is rather unfortunate nobody makes an Aluminum Bisley Grip frame. So, a departure from my normal sixgun formula would be required here. Hopefully some trim lightweight wood stocks would fill the void here.

I remember one time sitting with Alan Harton and Lynn Thompson of Cold Steel knives. They were having a conversation about building Single Sixes with aluminum cylinders. Alan told Lynn he could do it. I called up Alan and asked him if the same applied to 30 Carbine and he said it did. Hmmm

[Encore64]

I've also been considering what my FA97 327 Fed could handle in nose length. Cylinders are 1.625" and have both the 327 Fed and 32-20 cylinders.

As far as lightening a revolver barrel, I'd turn it down and leave a flange area near the frame and a band to drill and tap for the ERH screw. Similar to the old pre-64 Winchester barrels.

[2 Dogs]

I was able to shoot the 135 grain GCHP Miha out of my 327 FA 97 at 1500 fps. My everyday load was 1400 fps however.

Neat idea about the flange... I forgot to mention I indended to turn the cylinder way down forward of the approaches...

[medicdave]

Reminds me of the lightweight single seven on gunbroker last year. Barrel turned down in the center, aluminum erh and grip frame, scalloped loading gate, and I can't remember all what else.

[Encore64]

Been done on many guns for years. Revolvers, TCs, rifles and you name it.

Channeling frame, fluting barrels and bolts, skeletonizing hammers and bolt handles, etc. I even got to see a revolver barrel turned on increments like the old "finned" Thompson machine gun barrels.

None of these are new ideas. It's just a matter of individual preference and for the home gunsmith, which tools he's got to work with.

[2 Dogs]

Waterboy has far more experience with this realm and knows more than I do on the subject. Ditto on Fermin...

Scotty, with all his new kit, me thinks it won't be long before you and I both will be asking Huey for advice. I know for sure I'd love to help him wring out those small bore Trail Guns!

[sheriff]

Always liked a challenge, especially when it comes to cast bullets and reloading so when this 32/30 carbine post appeared, I was interested and willing to put out the time effort and some cash. I own several 3ll, 312, and 314 molds from Accurate, Lyman, and Mihea, in a variety of weights from 90rs to the 140gr sledgehammer. I have a 'Buckeye' .32-20, lots of brass and Lee push thru sizers .309 thru .314, but not a NMBlackhawk in .30 carbine, so I made some inquiries and in the interest of 'cast bullet shooting' purchased a set of .30 Carbine dies, some Starline .30 Carbine brass, and an current production, new in the box, NMB .30 Carbine. The 'goodies all arrived with the Blackhawk coming in yesterday morning.

I cleaned and measured my Blackhawk's cylinder, using a caliper, sized ,32-20 and .30 carbine cases, (sized but not trimmed)I discoved a couple of things with my cylinder. 1.) it was .065" longer than my .32-20 Buckeye cylinder, and 2.) untrimmed Starfire new .32-20 brass from my lot of 500
would drop in, rim flush with my .30 carbine cylinder face, but would not function properly with the cylinder inserted in the revolver as the rim was just thick enough to cause the cases to drag on the recoil shield, even when the case length .025".

I measured the cylinder throats by pushing sized bullets thru each chamber starting with . 308 and moving up the scale and decided for now I'd stop at .309 which required slight pressure to pass the bullet thru the chamber throat.

Since I was wanting to see if I could get the Sledgehammer to chamber in the .30 carbine using .30 Carbine brass without loosing too much powder space, I began the process of loading a dummy round with the bullet barely seated in the case and with the seater stem all the way out began the process of insert cartridge into cylinder, pull out, adjust seating stem and seat bullet a tad and continued this until until the cartridge will drop in the cylinder and the cylinder would 'spin' freely. I got it to do so at a COL of 1.595. Set that length as my load lenth for the Sledge hammer in .30 Carbine cases and using some .32-20 data for 130gr bullets from an older Speer manual am starting to develop a load.

We'll see how much I can cram under that Sledgehammer and not blow up me or the gun.

[paulg]

Sounds like you just put the caffeine back in the coffe sheriff. Look forward to your findings.

[2 Dogs]

Well thought out and written Russ. Looking forward to your results. Be interesting to see what the SH trips the speedometer at. Benchmark is 1500+ for the 32-20 in a MODERN sixgun, H110 powder, and a 7 1/2" barrel.

Highly doubt you're going to be able to bend that NMBH...

[sheriff]

As an aside to this hunt, I've refreshed myself on the fact that not all factory guns of the same caliber and model are necessarily the same dimension wise. Of the 6 chambers starting at the 'S' and going clockwise around the cylinder, #1 was the tightest and #6 was the largest As I pushed .308, .309. 311 and .312 sized bullets I could actually feel the amount of resistance decrease as I moved around the cylinder. In fact, a .308 and a .309 would both drop thru #6 without assistance. The other thing about mu .30 Carbine compared to the .32WCF Buckeye was the cylinder length and the cylinder window opening, both being larger on the newer NMB . The .32WCF cylinder dropped in the .30 Carbine cylinder window while the .30 Carbine would not fit the Buckeye, even tho they're both New Model Blackhawk frames. There was .065 difference in the length of the cylinders. Just another reminder as to why 'it works in MY gun' is oft repeated. As Fermin mentioned earlier, the Sledgehammer would not chamber in the Blackhawk .30 Carbine cylinder he mention, yet it did in mine. Each gun is an enity unto itself.

[jsh]

I am weak. You guys are going to force me to go forward with a 30 carbine.
I may have to bring my pin gauges with me and check a couple before flopping cash out.
Jeff