big game bullet question

[jfs]

Sitting and looking at all the handgunned animals and know there are plenty of guys here that only use cast bullets for all their hunting. I have taken a few of the big critters and used Corbon penetrators or punch bullets and was curious as to what type of cast bullet you would use on something like a Cape buff or even an elephant... Is there anything special that is done when making a bullet like that?? The photo shows l-r: 41 - 44 and 500WE with K type bullets....

[COR]

I know of one elephant that died from a .510 350gr Cast Performance slug. Those are cast "hard" at above 20bhn (the .44 slugs are at least). I'm gonna get a premium bullet if I'm chasing pachyderms or m'bogo but I've got no experience with either and will probably never shoot an elephant... cape buff is still a possibility and "on the list".

I can't recall Ross mentioning any special alloy in regards to his bullets used in Africa, hopefully someone else can recall that, but I know they didn't have the ultra premium stuff that is available now such as the lathe turned Punch bullets.

[whitworth]

Jun 30, 2017 6:02:50 GMT -5 COR said:

I can't recall Ross mentioning any special alloy in regards to his bullets used in Africa, hopefully someone else can recall that, but I know they didn't have the ultra premium stuff that is available now such as the lathe turned Punch bullets.

Actually Ross did recognize the shortcomings, or rather limitations of the hardcast bullet, and when he got his first .475, he was experimenting with rifle solids - Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammers to be exact (he shortened both ends trying to mimic the LFNs he was using). He found them to be vastly superior in performance, increasing penetration significantly, but had a devil of a time keeping the bullets in the cases. We live in good times now with so many good options available to us -- they just cost money!

[sixshot]

You are correct, many of the really good jacketed bullets were not available back when Ross took his "short 458" as PH Hugo Seia fondly referred to it when speaking of Ross' 5 shot 45 Colt but he did try the 300 gr. Speer plated bullets & also the Nosler Partitions & some Swift A-Frames & pronounced them fine on midsized game. He also went on to say that if you were after big critters, nothing was as good as hard, cast solids with wide noses, his words, not mine.
He also said that on occasion he used the 475 but his every day work horse was the 5 shooter 45, again, his words, not mine. I really think that he would love the heavier weight Punch bullets even though pressure goes up with the copper type bullets compared to cast but still there is no denying that Kelye came up with a wonderful bullet with that Punch design.

Dick

[tradmark]

I think its interesting to see how and what he hunted with them. I dont think ross shot many animals with the swifts if at all. I can tell that he liked them but i can tell he didnt shoot anything with them much bc he lamented penetration depth in paper. If you use them enough u find that penetration of a good expandable is easy 50% to 75% futher in flesh vs what you get in paper. This is why the swift penetrated so deeply on the waterbuff at the bovine bash. Too bad ross never got to use the bigger caliber swifts and the barnes.

If you look at the linebaugh seminars and compare some of the best penetrating rounds in paper then compare the results thru the beef knuckle and paper you can see how well the 454 in punch format did. I believe ross wouldve appreciated that bullet and the solid copper solids more than we know!

[COR]

I was commenting specifically that Ross never mentioned a specific lead alloy mix that I could recall but he referred to "hardcast". I'm going to at least say this in keeping with the original question James asked of lead... the companies that market such bullets/rounds ....Grizzly or Cast Performance or even Garrett.... they use a relatively high bhn of 18-24. If all I had was a lead slug and I was using my molds I'd probably go that route with purchased alloy of that bhn range.... and I'd powder coat them to match my Crocs.

[sixshot]

Ross did mention that he used linotype on the cape buffalo & it weighed 335 grs & was a Keith style, not the best compared to an LBT. This is just a guess on my part but I would think that he would have added a bit of lead because straight linotype can be a bit brittle, especially at high velocity. Using a wheel weight alloy & heat treating you can go even harder than linotype & stay with a tough bullet.
I agree that "paper" penetration is much different that bone/muscle penetration & I also think these newer bullets, although I haven't used them are a step up on my cast bullets, but only a tiny step. Those photo's he took of those 360 gr. LBT's looked pretty darn good to me & from a 5 shot 45 are equal to a 454 from a short cylindered FA in every way.

Dick

[tradmark]

Having friends that have written for various magazines and some are very very notable writers, i know that you have to read between the lines to really get the message. I had a friend write an article on a bullet made by a major maniufacturer. He originally wrote that he didmt think it was up to the task on the game he had hunted with it. He was told in no uncertain terms they wouldnt print that article if written as such. He modified his wording and to get the message you had to really read between the lines. I know what ross wrote, ive now read it all. I also know if the cast were all that, he wouldnt have been cutting down those rifle solids! I would love to try your bullets dick, and i would live you to come hunt the biggies and try punch or solid coppers. They never fail. Great bullets!

[COR]

So what I think I hear you say you don't like cast on big animals. NO ONE is arguing the solids are better on bigger animals, how much better is an interesting thought. The reality is that they are a specialty bullet that can cost up to a few bucks per pop. Men who shoot cast do so because they shoot a lot and enjoy doing it. We also get a lot of enjoyment over putting together the whole load from raw lead form... it's part of the draw and part of knowing your tool. You can't shoot solids all day everyday and do it affordably... The Belt Mountain Punch bullet has been around almost 15 years give or take... it's not new to anyone. It's just too expensive and not needed for 99% of any man's hunts. Breaking down the minutia of what kills something "deader" is what bullet companies do to market their wares... truth is, if you let air in and blood out, living things die... I know, I know... "mean animals that bite or stomp gotta be broke down".... I am very careful to use any absolutes when dealing with wild (or domestic game) for that matter, some things just want to live a little more than another, its spirit just hangs on a bit longer... they don't read much about bullets I guess.

So what BHN do you recommend anyway??? 65 or above like brass? 😉

[jfs]

Anyway....is there much of a difference between a cast bullet you would use for deer and one to be used on one of the bigger African animals or big bears??? A better question would be "What would you use for the game listed above"?? Thanks for your time.....
PS..I`ve used cast bullets in the past and when everything goes right the results can be outstanding...This 100 yard, 1 1/2" three shot group was made in preparation for a Florida water buff hunt....The load was Buffalo Bore`s .475 Linebaugh 440 gr. EWN-GC at a listed 1325fps. Shot from my 10" Freedom Arms.....

[tradmark]

Yes COR you are right and i am
Constantly impressed by guys like dick that craft their own bullets and use them effectively. I use cast the same way and for the same reasons you do and have and do hunt alot with them. However, when dealing with african game, which i believe is what james was referring to, i dont think cost is an issue and that is the angle i am
Responding from. For game here i dont care which one someone loaded in my gun and if i had my choice id use premo hp's but no one doubts cast on elk and moose. When spending 20k on a hunt i find that whether you spend 50 bucks, 30 bucks, or one hundred bucks it a moot point when added to the cost of a hunt. The steep cost for a punch bullet is for the best but solid copper can be had for less than half the cost of a punch and work
Marvelously. If someone wants to use their load and their bullet they made, i get it and if i made bullets id be experimenting and use what i made as well.

[sixshot]

tradmark, I think what you just said is what I've been saying for the last 2 weeks! If you like um, use um! I said right from the jump that you guys have the edge because in 50 years of handgunning I've never killed any of the really big stuff so there's a pretty good chance I never will. You guys have tackled some really big stuff & proven to yourselves that the premium bullets are worth the money & I agree with that, I said that early on.
I did see where Whit said he ran one 405 gr. cast slug through a 2,000 critter & 2 other bullets right to the edge with his 45 Colt so now we're getting close to my stomping grounds. If I switch my 390 gr. HP over to a 410 gr. solid in my 480 & light the switch on a case full of H110 in my 5 shot 480 I'm guessing....just guessing I might get the attention of that same 2,000 Bovine?
Also I think it was you that said Whit stood right in there & faced a charging Bovine at very close range & said that took some real patience/courage, etc, can't remember your wording but my question is, you guys stated that you were only taking shoulder shots to test each bullet design, wouldn't that make for a tough shot on a charging Bovine? Might explain why you ended up with a "small" truck load of cast bullets recovered in 12+ animals.
At one time I offered to give you some of my cast bullets to try but you informed me that you use MBW cast slugs & had connections to a couple of the major jacketed bullet manufacturers, guess my bullets have "short comings" or "limitations" anyway that deal is off the table. I probably have bullets in all 50 states, many I've given away because I'm not in the bullet selling business. I've received many, many, many dozens of photo's over the years of animals that were taken with my bullets with great success although most were 999 lbs or less.... They tell me what they plan to shoot & what speed & I make the correct BHN, always works. Happy 4th to everyone, especially to my Marine Grandson!!

Dick

[tradmark]

Ive always said id love to try em. Not sure what mbw bullets are. I guess when we test em we test for the worst case scenario. How does it do on the toughest bone etc.

Really i think it comes down to effect and how much velocity ya wanna play with and how much bullet integrity ya need. Good shooting and happy 4th of july

[tradmark]

What deal is exactly off the table?

[tradmark]

Hhhhm. Dick, ive never ever told people what they can and cant use. These threads are about whats best and basically what would we use for large dangerous game. I hope it doesnt make ya mad but after those buff ran off with 5 figure trophy fees a few years back i figured that the standard line on what the experts use and favor needed to be investigated a bit. The topic of handgun hunting has gotten rather stale for the last couple decades. Ive seen many threads on many forums where dissenters from the heavy cast bullet line of thought got denigrated, heavily! Funny on my trips i was the one that needed to pay more attention to paper ballistics and learn what i should use and after the results were in, i was the one that was vindicated. Those same guys i hunted with were busted down harshly on forums discussing this and due to pride couldnt post what their true experiences were, and one in particular said "its not pride, but then they will just attack my shooting." Assuming he didnt place it right. Good thing theres video if he ever chooses to release it. Sometimes digging for the truth ruffles feathers and sometimes not, but if i can help a few guys come back with a buff safe and sound and ethically killed then i guess its worth it. Somewhere around here i haVe got a pic of a truckload of cast which was just the first two or three animals shot. Betcha can guess which ones hit
Heavy bone and which ones didnt? I know what you say your bullets limitations are and arent but arent they advertised a bit differently everywhere else?