Medium recoil loads for 180gr hard cast lead in 357 ?

[chantico]

I rec'd approx 400 Cast Performance 180gr gas checked hard cast lead .357's (38/180 WFNGC) a few months ago as part of a bulk reloading components purchase and am looking for a way to use them in my S&W 66-2 or Anniversary Ruger Blackhawk, the only 357's I own. Recoil is a problem with arthritic hands, so using them at the design pressures and velocities is a no-go.

I found a few loads on older forums using modest Trail Boss and Unique loads, but I'm putting off testing them until I do some more research. If there are safe loads available, I will shoot them on my gun club's steel and paper ranges.

These are apparently premium bullets for .357 rifles and heavier pistols, and I may be better off trading these with somebody for 158gr SWCs.

I'm interested in input from folks using these type bullets in mid-size revolvers, including proven loads.

Thanks.

[bradshaw]

The S&W Model 66 swings at the thin end of the .357 durability seesaw, with the Ruger Blackhawk firmly planted opposite. There are light .357 loads which the M-19/M--66 may throw by the thousands without a hiccup. May wear out the stop, peen the cylinder pin, pour some erosion on the barrel face without cracking it. One such load consisted of a pure lead core swaged into a copper half jacket to form a 158 SWC HP. This bullet without cannelure was DEEP SEATED over 12/Hercules 2400 in .357 Mag brass and lit by CCI 550 mag primer was good for 4-inches @ 100 yards.

To load the hard cast 180 WFN GC for the M-66 I would start with 10 gr./Alliant 2400 and mag primer. Try it and adjust as necessary. The bullet would have be at hand to determine seating depth and whether I’d crimp in the groove or deep seat and roll crimp on ogive. Alliant 2400 takes over from the old Hercules, an old old powder of great utility; fastest of the slow pistol powders. I would avoid fast powder with 180 grain.
David Bradshaw

[oddshooter]

I too have joint and tendon issues with my old age. No more heavy bruisers for me either.

Hodgdon data center does not list loads for 170 or 180 gr bullets for Trailboss. Lots of other powders listed for those bullets.

Per Hodgdon when using Trailboss, you must drop down to 158 gr bullets with max 4.2 gr for around 850fps. I shoot this load with great accuracy and very mild recoil.
So Hodgdon doesn't suggest Trailboss for heavy for caliber bullets like the 180gr in 357magnum.

I shoot the 180gr regularly in the 357Maximum and like the bullet; but I am using slower powder like 4227.

If you want to try that 180gr, I think David Bradshaw's suggestion of 2400 is excellent (fastest of the slow pistol powders).  It is reasonably slow powder.  Stay away from the slow powder H110 with that bullet, because it does not download well and its recoil on the top end with that heavy bullet can be brutal.


Prescut

[dhd]

I too am having a renewed interest with 357's, though it has nothing to do with recoil sensitivity. I will admit it's nice to not be banged up and I doubt anyone will say a 357 is not an Accurate cartridge.

My newest mold is an Accurate 36-176D (Tom modified another drawing at my request and that's what he ended up with) and with COWW + 2.5% tin they weigh 177 grains. The only powder I've used so far is HS6. I've only used HS6 beginning late last year, but I have to say I wish I had used it long ago (I wish I had a few 8 pound containers of HS7, but it's gone).

My rambling point is that HS6 works wonderful for me in the mid/heavy weight bullets at a decent velocity. As long as I put enough in the case and use a Magnum primer, it is very clean burning without any unburned granules. Before you give up on the 180's, give a pound of HS6 a try. My recommendation would be about 8.5 grains and use a Magnum primer. It won't be a powder puff load, but it won't be a heavy load either.

I'm editing to say I suggest this load for the Blackhawk only. I would love to own a 66, but I would agree that recoil would be stiff with 180 grain bullets.

Edited to add that I took another look at the bullet in question. Taking that long bearing surface into the equation, if you were to try HS6 start at 8 grains and work up. The bullets I use have longer noses and take up less space inside of the case. 

[Markbo]

Piggy back question if I may. I have one .357 SA with a long cylinder I want to try 180gr bullets in. What kind of velocity can I expect an do I need to use gas checks because of it?

[oddshooter]

May 15, 2017 0:45:59 GMT -5 Markbo said:

Piggy back question if I may. I have one .357 SA with a long cylinder I want to try 180gr bullets in. What kind of velocity can I expect an do I need to use gas checks because of it?

I must be missing the question? If you are talking factory loads, it depends on which one you buy. Most 180's are meant for larger animals (bear) and are loaded very stout. 1300fps and up (barrel length?). Read the box or call the manufacturer for the velocity.



If you reload:

You can expect the velocity to be commensurate with the amount and the powder used.



You can make a powder puff load or you can make a fire eating dragon load.



As for gas checks, the general Cast rule of thumb is anything above 1200fps or so in 357 can cause leading. If you have tight cylinder and barrel specs, use the right sized bullet, and hardness ; there should be little need for gas check. If you want to push the velocity and are concerned with leading, gas checks are an easy way to keep right on shooting without the lead issues.



Or you can go jacketed without the leading worries.

[paul105]

May 15, 2017 0:45:59 GMT -5 Markbo said:

Piggy back question if I may. I have one .357 SA with a long cylinder I want to try 180gr bullets in. What kind of velocity can I expect an do I need to use gas checks because of it?

Can't answer the gas check question, but is some chrono info from a while back.

Beartooth 185gr LFNGC
New WW Cases
Fed 200 Mag
14.7gr Lil'Gun
1.595 OAL
Chron 4 Paces fr Muzzle



Marlin 18" 1,713fps
Ruger BH 6.5" 1,388fps
Ruger SP101 3" 1,161fps
S&W M60 3" 1,175fps
S&W M360 Ti 1.875" 1,023fps
S&W M340 Ti 1.875" 1,007fps


Addressing chantico's question, given his circumstances, I'd be inclined to go with Trail Boss or use max 38 SPECIAL data for 200gr bullets in .357 cases -- sorry, no personal experience.

[Markbo]

Actually both responses were very helpful. Maybe I will just try some XTPs first, then move on to cast if I find good accuracy. FYI oddshooter I don't believe much in fire breathing loads. I have lots of large calibers if needed. I care about accuracy. If I find that at 1,000fps or 1,300fps, then that's what Ill use.

[oddshooter]

We all prey at different altars. I'm with you about lighting a few candles at the accuracy bench. The big boomers have gone down the road for me. You have wandered into my favorite category of 357 reloading. I am a junky who can't get enough. I love making up hundreds of different combos and trying to do accurate, lab-type tests.

The mid size revolver I assume means no snubbies, no light weights; and no 10" barrels or big Dan Wessons. I don't understand why no big revolvers. I love shooting my Dan Wessons, Colt snake guns, S&W 27, and the United Sporting Arms SAAs. Weight is the best recoil eater available. In candor, I do shoot a lot off an MTM pistol rest.

Your 66 and BH fit that mid size category perfectly. I shoot that 180 gr bullet cast under 1000fps all day long without banging my hands, joints, tendons, and muscles.  The 180gr is my favorite bullet for making that steel ring LOUD, with good accuracy.  I have used lots of powders in that 180gr category :  231, HS-6, n340, Unique, 2400, 4227, H110 ...

A general rule of thumb is heavy for caliber bullets don't do well with fast powders.
The only slow powders out of that mid kick category are the very slow powders like H110, which does not download well.

My 357 reference revolver is like your stainless steel S&W 66, but it's a K frame blued model 19 with scope. I refer to the model 19 when I want a rock solid standard to calibrate against for accuracy. It seems to shoot everything well. It doesn't see light-weight bullets or punishing 1200fps+ boomers. It should last forever if not stupid. My K frames are some of my favorites and are hell for stout.

I advise against it, but if you want to trade, I'm in. I have some 158gr cast SWC that is the most accurate bullet of the 20 I have tested. It seems to shoot the best in every gun with every powder. It's from a LEE MOLD # TL358-158 SWC. HARDNESS IS ABOUT 15-16. It is coated in LLA Lee Liquid Alox. I would love for someone else to test these. They are my magic bullet.

Prescut

[bigmuddy]

I have had great luck with Power Pistol and 180 gr. lead bullets, although not gc'd. I keep them around 1000 fps and they are easy on both gun and shooter, and like Prescut said they hit steel HARD. My go to 357 combo these days. Another benefit is they don't have the ear splitting noise if I have to shoot a pest without ear plugs.

Dan

[daveb]

I have had decent luck with a 188gr WFNGC I cast over Longshot, recoil is very nice compared to the Power Pro 300-MP I generally use. I shoot these from a 5 1/2" NMFT, a 50th Anniversary FT, and a 3" GP100.

[bula]

My old school heart would say 2400. Without a doubt it'll do what you want. My head says these newer powders mentioned above in the last two posts, Will do the same, more efficiently. I just haven't gotten far enough into the still new jugs to give charge weights.  

[Deleted]

Are you loading 357 cases, or 38 Spls? There are a few different directions you could go. Perhaps the best plan would be to trade your CPs off to someone for lighter weight bullets as you mentioned. 180 gr is pretty rare in 38 Spl, and thats why you are having difficulty finding established loads. It's also a "stomper" weight for 357, and that's why you aren't finding much for lighter loads there.