some general black powder/ muzzle loader questions...

[magnumwheelman]

Went to MRS cousins traditional muzzle loader shoot this last weekend... Saturday... 40* pouring rain, & 40 mph hour winds... yup we still shot... cousin has a small "skinning shack" just off the 25 meter range, & everyone was huddled in there in the dark, trying to stay warm, dry, & loading in there between shots... I brought a decent rain coat, & had used a milsurp poncho to tarp up my CASS buggy, so I stood outside in the rain the whole day, & loaded from my cart, & stayed out & verified targets for everyone... feet & legs were soaked, & by the end of the day, my outer sweatshirt was damp... inner seemed OK... was still pretty cold by the end of the day... Sunday was the 50 & 100 meter... no cover, but 10* warmer, less wind, & only sprinkles...

I took 4th place, & did not shoot anywhere close to as good as I did the year before... but in my defense, I had put a new adjustable Lyman sight on the rear, & didn't get the chance to sight it in before the shoot, so I was dialing it in, on the 10 shots we shot at 25 meters...

a couple questions...

I'm using a TC 50 cal. we inherited from MRS dad... I'm having trouble with caps firing on the 1st try... I started with a factory sealed tin from 2015 of CCI caps, & nearly every single one failed to fire on the 1st try... almost all fired on the 2nd try... on Sunday, I went to an old factory sealed ( 93 era ) Dymit Noble tin, & they fired better, but in the 20 shots fired Sunday... probably 3 took a 2nd blow from the hammer... as a reloader, I'm aware of the need to fully seat a primer for reliable ignition, so I was careful to fully push the cap onto the nipple... the nipple is the kind that has the holes on the sides, designed to flair out the cup... don't know if that makes any difference or not??? the hair trigger could probably be measured in grams of pull ( very very light )... I'm not sure if the hammer spring was lightened to help reduce trigger pull or not, but this is the rifle my FIL had used at this shoot, which has now been going on for 29 years...

2nd question, is group size... "everyone" is running reduced target charges... & from what I gather, they are just "picking" a reduced charge... for example talking 50 cal. some were running 40 grains ( I was shooting 70 ) & I know my 50 cal hunting rifle can run up to 150 grains... thats quite a spread... I know as a reloader, that 1 grain of powder can make quite a difference in group sizes on a smokeless cartridge load... curious if it might be prudent to sit down one day, at 50 yards, on the bench with some sand bags, & start at a minimum load, & increase 5 grains every 10 shots, looking for a reduced group size... the 100 meter is shot off a bench, so if everyone has good shooting skills, the group size is the critical factor in that part of the competition

Third question... trying to figure out how thick a patch... last year I used. 015" patches. This year I was using. 010"

One guy was using the same ball and bore, and was using. 020"

I know when I first bought my 32, my patches were too thick for my balls, I nearly had to use a mallet to seat the balls... but I nearly put 4 balls into the same hole... if the patch is too thick, can it be hard on the gun?

[bulasteve]

I was told the following, by a gent that retired from my crew some yrs ago. He'd been a sniper in Korea, and competed at Camp Perry. His true love though was BP, he went to re-inactments, built rifles from scratch, as in only bought the lock and barrel. One of his rifles won the Nat'ls yrs ago. When I bought my Lyman Great Plains .54 he told me to lay a sheet out on the ground off the muzzle and starting with a square load, 55grs for the .54, watch for unburnt powder on the sheet while going up 5grs per shot. Best accuracy to be found before you find unburnt powder. For me it was 80grs, though the gun safe to 100grs..

[nolongcolt]

For the ignition issues I would get a new spring for that gun, its not hitting hard enough. It should never take more than one hit on a cap. Or try a factory nipple. Hot Shot nipples are supposed to be good too. How old are the caps?
In my T/C .50, 60grs of 3F gives great accuracy but so does 70. Its worth it to spend some time on the range to find the very best load. No use really in trying to go in 5gr increments, use 10.

[bulasteve]

Since I don't know who may read this..when we are mentioning a powder charge in grains, its not grains as measured on a scale, by weight. It's a measure by volume. If you find yourself scratching your head right now, further research by you, is needed.

[nolongcolt]

Good point to mention.

[bradshaw]

magnumwheelman.... "I'm using a T/C 50 cal. we inherited... having trouble with caps firing on the 1st try... I started with a factory sealed tin from 2015 of CCI caps, & nearly every single one failed to fire on the 1st try... almost all fired on the 2nd try... ... the nipple is the kind that has the holes on the sides..."
***
As nolongcolt hints, it sounds as though your T/C caplock suffers from a very light, or altered, mainspring. Whether the hammer spring is poor hardware with no life left or, is an intentionally altered leaf or, a cut coil, a first-try misfire followed by a second-try discharge suggests light hammer fall. A deactivated cap or primer won't fire.

A nipple with side-perforations invites moisture into the powder train.

Light hammer fall invites the hazard of discharge with high pressure coming back through the nipple.
David Bradshaw

[magnumwheelman]

I'm measuring, rather than weighing the charge...

[magnumwheelman]

If I were going to replace the hammer spring ( the gun is probably an 80's TC Hawken 50 caliber ) where would one go about getting a spring???

Track of the Wolf has... Main spring, wax cast steel, tempered, for L&R RPL-03 T/C Hawken lock

not sure if that would fit or not... I haven't seen an actual TC replacement, & am unsure as far as fit of others replacements...

I think I saw some brand of replacement locks, that had coil springs... not sure if that is the best option or???

[oldschool]

Bradshaw and one of the other posters is right, sounds like a weak hammer spring. Your best bet is to contact T/C, they are very good about warranty work, even years later. They may want you to send in the lockwork, though.

As to the nipple, it sounds like you already have a "Hotshot-style" nipple on the gun, but you might replace it with a new one, just in case the one you're using has been peened from dry firing. Also check the inside of the hammer, where it contacts the nipple. Make sure it appears to be hitting the nipple square. T/C changed the hammer geometry back in the 1990s to accommodate a new style of barrel (the one with the freebored muzzle that allows you to press a ball or Maxi in with your thumb). If the hammer or barrel has ever been changed, someone may not have adjusted the hammer strike to hit the nipple squarely.

As for accuracy, my .50 T/C Hawken has always preferred a tight patch with roundball. It shoots best with .017" pillow ticking, but shoots almost as well with .015" precut patches (I shoot .490" roundball; if shooting .495", you'll obviously need a thinner patch).

For targets, I usually have the best luck with 50-60 gr of 3F.

Keep your powder dry!

[nolongcolt]

A TC lock will have coil springs to start with. Wolff springs probably has them as well.

[bluecow]

shot and hunted with muzzle loads exclusively for about ten years. ya the bug bit me hard. never cared for cci caps. get rsw. replace the nipple. start with the easy cheap stuff to fix first

[AxeHandle]

Find a good gunsmith. S&W now owns TC and the good customer support TC was known for is gone.

[bulasteve]

Maybe call the Log Cabin Shop, in Lodi Ohio ? Dixie Gun Works another source for info and parts.

[cas]

May 15, 2016 9:12:47 GMT -5 AxeHandle said:

Find a good gunsmith. S&W now owns TC and the good customer support TC was known for is gone.

Call first. Someone just posted elsewhere a month or so ago about sending a discontinued "traditional" rifle in for work and them talking care of the problem, so it doesn't hurt to ask. (I was shocked too)

[mnimrod45]

One other thought. While I agree at first it sounds like a weak spring, are you pushing the caps down very firmly on the nipple? You said they almost never fire on the first shot but almost always fire on the second try. This makes me think the first hammer fall has the hammer fully seating the cap against the nipple and the second is able to ignite it. If not fully seated a lot of the hammer's energy is used up seating the cap because it cushions it. Don't be afraid to push that sucker on there with your thumb a bit. I guess one could fire doing that but I've never had it happen. I push mine on my Renegade pretty tight with my thumb.

Just a though. Good luck.