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Post by tek4260 on Dec 17, 2015 20:58:18 GMT -5
Why should I believe they will send me something better?
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 17, 2015 21:05:22 GMT -5
Buckheart, I honestly don't know how they will end up. The frame threads appear to be fine. As the screws came out of the threads in the frame and had to pass all the loctite, it flattened the threads on the screws. That's why I'm not reusing them. I don't want to mess up the frame threads with known damaged screws. In the end, this was the problem. That ridge that was left on the frame where the rear of the ratchet rides. I've removed it and smoothed it up, so with new screws it should be fixed.
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Paden
.375 Atomic
Lower Goldstream Creek
Posts: 1,132
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Post by Paden on Dec 17, 2015 22:08:12 GMT -5
That some guns are pumped full of red threadlocker, while others are not, is a real curiosity.
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 18, 2015 8:20:06 GMT -5
Back to the drawing board. It's still got a hitch when I touch the cylinder while cocking it or if I load it with empty brass. I couldn't stand to wait on new screws so I tore another down and robbed the screws for a function check. It's hanging past the point of the latch releasing, so it's not the plunger. It's probably the razor sharp edges of the ratchet and pawl binding against each other. I'll tear it down again and see if I can find where it is. I'm thinking knocking the razor sharp edge off the ratchet will help since it's almost impossible to turn the cylinder as you insert the base pin. Anything other than perfect alignment and the cylinder freezes. That goes right along with it hanging from touching the side of the cylinder or the drag imparted by the case heads. This is really disappointing, but it's what I get for being excited about an offering from Ruger.
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Post by BigBore44 on Dec 18, 2015 8:48:54 GMT -5
Dang...? That's a RIDICULOUS AMOUNT of Loctite! Someone at Ruger needs to kick the Glue/Loctite guy in the keester.... I can see not wanting these to come apart but, Damn, that's way too much RED Loctite! I'd at least send them pics, LOTSA pics and see what they have to say...? I'm sure they'll probably bitch about you taking the gun apart but who cares. That SHOULDN'T have left the plant like that, Period!!! Good luck and keep Us in the loop please... BigBore44
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 18, 2015 11:30:52 GMT -5
I decided to go ahead and give Ruger a chance to make it right or replace it. In speaking with them on the phone, I asked for a few issues to be corrected:
The obvious binding The dished out pin holes The rounded edges of the frame The front sight base not sitting flush with the barrel The front sight base not sitting exactly at TDC The loose base pin fit with cylinder The ejector housing screw sitting high. I don't know if it is just tall, not tight, or cross threaded The .454 throats which should be .452 No Loctite whatsoever when it is returned Something better than an 8# trigger Grips that actually fit the grip frame
I've got a RMA number and will be sending it off in a few days. We shall see what they do....
How did BFR get it right in all those areas for the same price?
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Post by whitworth on Dec 18, 2015 11:53:13 GMT -5
I decided to go ahead and give Ruger a chance to make it right or replace it. In speaking with them on the phone, I asked for a few issues to be corrected: The obvious binding The dished out pin holes The rounded edges of the frame The front sight base not sitting flush with the barrel The front sight base not sitting exactly at TDC The loose base pin fit with cylinder The ejector housing screw sitting high. I don't know if it is just tall, not tight, or cross threaded The .454 throats which should be .452 No Loctite whatsoever when it is returned Something better than an 8# trigger Grips that actually fit the grip frame I've got a RMA number and will be sending it off in a few days. We shall see what they do.... How did BFR get it right in all those areas for the same price? They are a much smaller volume manufacturer -- MUCH smaller, so I expect more attention to detail. I think you just got a lemon. Let's hope they do you right. Did you shoot it?
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 18, 2015 12:02:00 GMT -5
No, I didn't get a chance to shoot it. As it stands now, the cylinder will freely turn by hand when loaded with empty cases, but binds when you try to cock it. You would have to cock it till it binds, back off on the hammer a bit, turn the cylinder ahead of where it binds, then go to full cock on each chamber to fire it.
I don't see where small has anything to do with detail when you are talking comparable firearms at comparable prices. If anything, Ruger should be able to take extra time on what is arguably one of their "premier" handguns with all the time they save on the semi auto handguns and the American series rifles.
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Post by whitworth on Dec 18, 2015 12:17:16 GMT -5
Magnum Research produces a small fraction of the firearms that Ruger does. The demand isn't there by comparison. When you're not churning them out at the rate Ruger does, you can take more time to make sure things are right. It's what I expect from a small shop (relatively speaking). That is why FAs are rarely off. Still there is no excuse for this and I am willing to bet that Ruger will make things right.
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 18, 2015 12:31:19 GMT -5
And I know I "expect a lot" from it, or any firearm for that matter. But if I didn't, I'd be satisfied with a Taurus or a Hi Pernt. Why should we expect less than what we got back in the days of an Old Model? Or when Bill Ruger Sr was there?
And why can't I speak to someone there who will answer my questions rather than someone who, when I say I have one with a few issues, interrupts me and simply wants my info to send the label to? Why is it impossible to have them transfer me to someone who knows about firearms and can answer my questions directly as to what to expect on the next one? Someone who will say, yes we will make the dimensions of the throat properly, or no we made them big on purpose. Maybe someone who will say we are going to send you one that is right, or be honest and say we are simply going to send you one off the line and hope that the odds are more in your favor this time.
If it isn't going to be better, or there is the very real chance that it could even be worse, then I'd be better off to fix it myself if I can.
Of course I sound like an ass who expects too much, but maybe the ones who think that are the type that expect too little and are the reason we get what we get. I'll give Ruger praise for actually making them. I'm thankful for that. But it's going to take a bit more effort to get my praise on the quality since I've seen others here with issues too. I also can't help but think there are those who don't know what to expect, or worse, ones who remain quiet about issues because they think they won't be in the "in" club anymore if they say something.
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Post by whitworth on Dec 18, 2015 12:41:03 GMT -5
And I know I "expect a lot" from it, or any firearm for that matter. But if I didn't, I'd be satisfied with a Taurus or a Hi Pernt. Why should we expect less than what we got back in the days of an Old Model? Or when Bill Ruger Sr was there? And why can't I speak to someone there who will answer my questions rather than someone who, when I say I have one with a few issues, interrupts me and simply wants my info to send the label to? Why is it impossible to have them transfer me to someone who knows about firearms and can answer my questions directly as to what to expect on the next one? Someone who will say, yes we will make the dimensions of the throat properly, or no we made them big on purpose. Maybe someone who will say we are going to send you one that is right, or be honest and say we are simply going to send you one off the line and hope that the odds are more in your favor this time. If it isn't going to be better, or there is the very real chance that it could even be worse, then I'd be better off to fix it myself if I can. Of course I sound like an ass who expects too much, but maybe the ones who think that are the type that expect too little and are the reason we get what we get. I'll give Ruger praise for actually making them. I'm thankful for that. But it's going to take a bit more effort to get my praise on the quality since I've seen others here with issues too. I also can't help but think there are those who don't know what to expect, or worse, ones who remain quiet about issues because they think they won't be in the "in" club anymore if they say something. Or they just got lucky with their revolvers (not a Monday or Friday build). Or, I suspect, some folks don't quite know what to look for. You do, unlike most. I guess I just have lower expectations to a degree. I expect poor grip fitment for example. I expect the heavy and gritty trigger. I know I'm going to replace the rear sight for a Bowen. I always say that Rugers make a great foundation, but they can be improved upon. I am not excusing any of this, just playing devil's advocate. You're right in that they should pay closer attention. Perhaps the distributor should give them a once over before final shipment.......just an idea.
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Post by Encore64 on Dec 18, 2015 13:03:34 GMT -5
There does seem to be extremes in these guns. I got really lucky with mine, while others have purchased nightmare guns it would seem.
My 480 was near perfect, except for grip fit. When I sent it for some custom upgrades, even Gary Reeder commented on the surprising fit.
The 454 was the same, but included excessive Barrel gap. It was within Ruger tolerances, but not mine at .008". Not a huge issue since it goes for work next.
Not a hint of loctite on mine. Have to wonder if they vary this much if assembled by different people?
Hope Tek gets his fixed correctly. I can understand his irritation.
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Post by tek4260 on Dec 18, 2015 13:06:41 GMT -5
Haha! I agree that they are a foundation and you know that this one wasn't going to stay as is. It was supposed to be chopped to 4 5/8", an alloy ERH added, Super frame, hammer, etc, and coated to resemble blue. I didn't have a screwdriver with me to check the action, so that is on me. I knew of the other issues, the sight base, grips, ERH screw, and they were non issues because they wouldn't be there on the finished product. But you got to give me some leeway to gripe when you add all those issues to the fact that they didn't even check to see if it would cycle. That they missed the fact that there was a ridge in the frame that didn't get machined out where the ratchet rests that prevented it from turning unless the barrel was pointed down, and even then it wasn't guaranteed.
And I do appreciate your direct efforts in making this revolver happen and taking the time to play devils advocate with me. I should even ask you to call them and see if you can get my next one to be better! But nah, I'd rather just be another average Joe when it comes back to them and get treated right, along with everyone else that buys their products.
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Post by CraigC on Dec 18, 2015 14:19:40 GMT -5
Sometimes folks can over-analyze certain things. I see a lot of complaining about throats before the first shot is fired and that goes for all Rugers, mostly .45's. Sometimes throats dimensions make a big difference, sometimes they don't. The only way to know is to shoot it. My over-polished 3rd generation Colt New Frontier .45 has .457" throats but shoots wonderfully with .452" cast bullets.
However, it does seem to me that there have been a disproportionate number of issues with these guns in relation to their relatively low production numbers. Some of the issues I've seen are par for the course with Ruger. Like ill-fitting grips, gritty triggers and far-less-than-FA fit & finish. Those things are to be expected from any Ruger of any vintage. Other things, like chatter marks all down the bore, metal shavings, burrs and a huge overuse of thread adhesive are inexcusable. Somebody needs to show these folks that you only need a little bit of thread adhesive and that too much, is actually a bad thing.
I can't really weigh in on these particular guns because mine's been ordered for four months and hasn't shown up yet.
I notice our illustrious distributorship was blowing his horn and taking undue credit when they were announced (with stupid premature teaser pics) but goes quiet when these issues crop up. Just a casual observation.....
EDIT: All the BS has pretty much extinguished my enthusiasm for these guns. Next time I go to town, I'm canceling my .454 order.
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Paden
.375 Atomic
Lower Goldstream Creek
Posts: 1,132
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Post by Paden on Dec 18, 2015 20:03:47 GMT -5
There does seem to be extremes in these guns. I got really lucky with mine, while others have purchased nightmare guns it would seem. Having worked in production and managed assembly lines, this is the point I keep getting hung up on; the inconsistency. I understand Ruger is a high volume producer, employing numerous finish and assembly workers. Humans are not machines and some very small level of inconsistency from one employee to another is to be expected. But ensuring overall product consistency is the job of QC. The example of one gun pumped full of thread locker while the next is dry is a significant disparity, and symptomatic of a management failure. If the pneumatic thread lock dispenser is malfunctioning, it should be fixed; if the operator is incompetent or requires some additional oversight and OJT, it should be seen to... The goal of each and every assembly tech; the assembly-line team as a whole; the QC techs; line supervisors; and company management, should be CONSISTENCY. Good or bad, the quality of your product being shipped out the door should be consistent and predictable. Producing an inconsistent product is as bad or worse than producing a thoroughly crappy product, regardless of price point/volume. I like Ruger guns, and I've had good luck getting good ones, but it should not be a matter of luck. Right now, Ruger is producing an inconsistent product. If I was supervising their assembly floor, I'd be embarrassed.
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