Pistol Caliber Break Barrel

[Wasp]

Okay, I know this isn't necessarily the site for this, but you guys know customs better than anybody, so here it goes.

I have always liked carbines in 9-.40-.45 calibers, I have also always liked the Handi-Rifles from H&R/NEF, I wish the two could be combined. I like the idea of being able to use my semi auto pistol calibers in a lightweight single shot, it appeals to me on many levels. I would suppress it eventually but that would just be a bonus.

Besides the lack of an extracting ejector are their any problems you guys can think of, is this possible? I know they already make a .357/.38 and I may have to settle for that (it is a great offering though). I think this could be pretty popular with the rest of the suppressor and semi auto crowd as well.

Any thoughts, ideas, opinions are welcome. Thanks for your consideration.

[Wasp]

www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=20&t=357317

Here's a link to a guy who said he had one converted, but it's a really old thread.

[f3]

Check out D and T custom gunworks website.

[Wasp]

Damn, I like H&R and I had no idea they were closing down. I'm not crazy about Thompson Center, just a personal thing.
Now I don't know what direction to go.

[magnumwheelman]

even though IMO, TC is not the same, since S&W owns them, the Contender is still a great way to go... I have a barrel in 10mm I see no reason one of the custom barrel makers couldn't accommodate you in either 9mm 40mm or 45 ACP... I'm doing a 25 ACP carbine barrel right now, as a companion gun to my custom 25 ACP Blackhawk

[cherokeetracker]

Apr 16, 2015 16:36:01 GMT -5 Wasp said:

Okay, I know this isn't necessarily the site for this, but you guys know customs better than anybody, so here it goes.

I have always liked carbines in 9-.40-.45 calibers, I have also always liked the Handi-Rifles from H&R/NEF, I wish the two could be combined. I like the idea of being able to use my semi auto pistol calibers in a lightweight single shot, it appeals to me on many levels. I would suppress it eventually but that would just be a bonus.

Besides the lack of an extracting ejector are their any problems you guys can think of, is this possible? I know they already make a .357/.38 and I may have to settle for that (it is a great offering though). I think this could be pretty popular with the rest of the suppressor and semi auto crowd as well.

Any thoughts, ideas, opinions are welcome. Thanks for your consideration.

Wasp,,, I am going to give you an educated guess on why they have not been putting 40S&W or 45 ACP barrels out. The headspace is on the case mouth on these calibers. So the tooling would have to be set up different for them. VS 357 caliber. The pistol calibers that I have seen offered , have rims on them. Such as a 500 S&W, that I owned once. The tooling has been set up for rimmed cartridges. IN PISTOL CALIBERS.       (Rifle calibers are head spaced off the shoulders.)

  That being the case, then the demand is going to have to be there to justify the expenditure of that money. We are talking 100s of thousands when you are mass producing.  As you have been told it probably is cheaper anyway to have a sleeve made. Is it worth it? It might be to you. But to that company, (H&R) No,, and even gunsmiths that sleeve barrels sometimes they get pricey. And you want a good smith, so that your weapon is both reliable and accurate.

   Now when you start talking cans,,,,, well the 45 ACP you don't have to do much. Regular 45 ACP rounds are SS. But the 9mm and the 40S&W you will have a choice. You can shoot regular ammo and it will not be as quiet, or you can go Sub Sonic and then it will be quiet for you.  I hope you know that once you go SS that you are not going to be shooting as far.   Another consideration when it comes to the can is,,, attaching it. Do you want to just thread it on? or do you want to get fancy with a quick release type of attachment?

   The other choice is to have an integrated suppressor. this would allow you to shorten the barrel down and with the length of the can you will make the required 16" barrel length, so that you do not have to pay another 200.00 Tax stamp for a (SBR) short barrel rifle. But double check on this or I can and you can PM me.

     this is all up to you,, as to your choice of, do you want to be the only kid on the block with a set up like you are talking about? Weigh it out, and check to see how well the end results will pay off. Is it worth the time and money you will spend.

   Pros  You will have a quiet gun that shoots your choice of caliber.

  CON  You are going to spend quite a bit of money on your rig and you are in for some wait time. Maybe a long wait time.

   I am talking Gunsmith time, and also 6-8months for tax stamps.

       I kept my discussion to the H&R/NEF rifles since that is what you first wrote about, and I never owned a contender.  But I have shot some Contenders, and while they are fun at times, I choose to stay with what I own. 

    There is now plenty of rifles or pistols that are very accurate. On this forum alone is some people that are far superior to many with pistols. A few days ago at the Range, a young man had a new 308, with a suppressor, and that can I really believe was the quietest suppressor I had ever heard, on a 308 WIN. That gun can be loaded with 110gr Spire points and sent down range at a smoking 3000fps or more, and that makes a coyote shiver. Or load it with the 165grs he was using and deer, hogs, and plenty others can bee on the lookout.  A 175-180 can take elk.   You are talking spending within a range that would have me giving a lot of thought to, weather or not the project gun, is really worth spending my time and money.  

     I enjoy wildcatting some, and when a man comes up with a new idea, or just something different, then he has to go through a lot sometimes to see the end result. 

[Wasp]

Thanks for your consideration.
Yes I'm very familiar with suppressors, around here, at least lately form 4's have only been taking about 3 months....it's about time-again!
I did a little research on the small pistol calibers I mentioned, it has and can be done, im just worried about ejection with a rimless cartridge. I just thought it would be great to buy less ammo types.
The 308 would be great, but I don't reload, so besides the normal higher expense of .308 ammo, I would have to BUY subsonic .308 ammo. Not really looking at doing that.
I would go with a semi auto PPC in a hangun caliber, but there's none light enough, cheap enough, reliable enough, that enspire my confidence. Plus I like the idea of a single shot.
I'm not looking to use this particular rifle much if any further than I would a .22, so 100 yds +/- would work. Since posting this I have been seriously considering the .38/.357 for this role. I could get a break barrel or Rugers bolt action carbine, still rather have a break barrel so we'll see. Also, I have a fairly heavy projectile that is readily available subsonic (.38) or supersonic (.357) both readily available.
I have dreamed of a pistol caliber single shot bolt action for nearly 20 years, but I will settle for this I guess.


I have also wanted a single shot bolt action .22 pistol to suppress as long as I can remember. I know cricket makes one but blah. There used to be a silhouette pistol in the 90's called the Gaucher GN1. Never could find one but now I would be afraid I couldn't find parts even if I could find the pistol. Oh well.

[Wasp]

Apr 17, 2015 8:01:32 GMT -5 magnumwheelman said:

even though IMO, TC is not the same, since S&W owns them, the Contender is still a great way to go... I have a barrel in 10mm I see no reason one of the custom barrel makers couldn't accommodate you in either 9mm 40mm or 45 ACP... I'm doing a 25 ACP carbine barrel right now, as a companion gun to my custom 25 ACP Blackhawk

I've never thought much about the 25 acp cartridge, in fact a old 90's model Jennings left a really bad taste in my mouth with this cartridge. To exhaggerate- if you held it one foot from a target and pulled the trigger twice, it would hit one foot to the left on the first shot and one foot to the right on the next...the third shot might hit behind you. I always thought it might be better with a longer cartridge case like a 10 mm or something similar, a longer barrel wouldn't hurt either.
What made you go with that cartridge over the .32 ACP or similar?

[Wasp]

Got to get this project done before the next dictator takes office. Ya know.

[Wasp]

In case anybody else is interested, this is the direction I'm heading. If you like my original idea or if your into custom builds and suppressors you'll love this!
Ruger 77/357 - Liberty Mystic X Suppressor

Here's a picture and the link is below:


www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=6&f=20&t=434362&page=1

I will have to sell my fully decked out AR15 to get there, but I don't use it much anyway.

[cherokeetracker]

This is interesting, Glad you are up on the cans. Glad also things have sped up in the stamp department. Now, the 357 with a 180grain bullet should be doable. and if you wanted to go even farther like a longer 200 or 220 grain then I am sure that a mold maker would take your money and provide you with want you want. Surely you can open up the throat a little, to accommodate the length if need be.
Or you can neck down or take another cartridge and neck it down.
A couple of points here, I did not mean for you to have to shoot subsonic with the 308, The young man at the range was shooting regular ammo ( hornady ) to be exact. But that neither here nor there.
A good integral suppressor ought to quiet down something a lot.
2nd point 357 is fast and loud. I am not trying to talk you out of it. but since you want to suppress it, that was my concern. But the photo above, shows a can that looks pretty long, so it should do the job.
For grins and giggles. I thought of using the 500 S&W for something like you are talking about. Since H&R/NEF made a rifle in the 500 S&W caliber. I also thought about necking it down. Or,,, just using the giant bullet they have for it and loading it down a little so I could handle it better and quiet it down some. I think it is a 750 grain projectile. You might have to yahoo or google it.

Good luck with whatever caliber you choose.

[Wasp]

That is true the .357 is big and loud, but most people shoot .38's either right off of the shelf or hand load them, but try too keep either subsonic.

It is also true that you dont have to keep your projectiles subsonic, but generally you are aren't going to get to hearing safe levels usually only shaving 20-25 db off of a super sonic projectile, still in the 140 db range. This doesn't even account for the sonic crack which is still pretty loud in and of itself.

Most people have mentioned that when using the package I mentioned above the report is as quiet as or quieter than a suppressed .22 LR when using subsonic ammo. I actually did my own research on this package a long time ago but never committed because I was still wanting to use .45 acp to minimize my ammo types, that idea went out the door after digging around and considering the trouble and expense, plus shooting a .38/.357 sounds cool right.

The .308 sounds great, the cost of putting together a bolt action similar to the package I just mentioned will be comparable in price when talking setup (rifle, scope, suppressor, etc.) except when talking ammo. It's much cheaper to buy .38 special off the shelf than .308 especially when talking quantity. One day I hope to get into reloading which would bring the price down on both.

I have seen a suppressed handi rifle in .500 S&W. The guy was wanting $1,500 which is rediculous since that is probably his cost for everything. You can shoot 700 gn bullets out of that thing-quietly. You would be better off to go with an integral on this one so they can port the barrel to bleed some gas.
Here's a video:
youtu.be/tMiUPq8rYLY

One of the main reasons I won't really consider a rifle caliber is because I want to be able to carry a handgun that is able to use the sane ammo, originally 1911 and handi rifle in .45, now S&W 686 and 77/357 carbine in .357/.38.

Here's a video of the 77/357 shooting Subsonics with a suppressor: (this is a handy rifle, although he talks quiet, you can compare the action sound and impact to the sound of the shot):
youtu.be/h1AtSXp3W5E


Here's a 77/44 suppressed for those that like bigger bullets:
youtu.be/V0gLyziLWFo

[cherokeetracker]

I watched everyone of those videos. I like the 357 break open. That was the coolest. Just make friends with somebody local to load for you, or buy ammo. Startup cost are really high for reloading. and then you get bitten and want to load everything you own, and then load specialty ammo LOL Its not cheaper anymore once I factor in my time. But it is fun, and when you take game that all the components came from your handi-work, OH it is a great feeling. if you go with a 9mm Can, you will not need a nielson device. At least with a break open, that should save a little. You have got me wanting to see your end results already. Speer makes a 220 grain for the 357 mag and with Titegroup and Trail Boss I have loaded some reduced loads that were sub sonic. I know you don't roll your own, but I am telling you about this so one day when you get some buddy to load you some rounds you will know about these. You can also load a 180 gr in a 38sp and it will fit into a S&W pistol cylinder which is shorter than some other pistols. I am mentioning this, so you will know that you do not have to lengthen the throat on the rifle, just in order to load longer bullets. you may know all this already. I know a cowboy action shooter that cut down the 45 Colt brass to the length of the 45 ACP just to get his reduced loads Primarily so that it did not recoil. There is answers to a lot of things in this game. Yep, jump in and get this going.

[Wasp]

Videos are great right!

This guy wanted really heavy bullets for this exact rifle, but he couldn't get them to feed when loading them in .357 brass, so he loaded them in .38 brass instead....like this:
LOL

I will get into loading, I just want to get this project started and finished first.

As soon as I sell my AR 15, ammo, and accessories, I will be pushing this project forward really fast. I should be able to get almost enough money out of all that to complete the project but the taxes will have to come out of pocket. Probably would start today if I hadn't just invested everything into two other projects, but I do want this one really bad! I can't wait and I'll keep you posted.

Here's a great thread on others who have started and finished this exact project if you want to read up.
www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=6&f=20&t=434362

[magnumwheelman]

WASP.... 25 ACP was chosen as a replacement for rim fire 22's I already have a custom centerfire 22 that uses lathe turned cases, & I wanted something that could shoot factory ammo & that I could handload to specifics... factory 25 ACP ammo is subsonic out of my 6" Blackhawk, yet still thumps my steel targets with more authority than a 6" barreled 22 LR, & is quieter than the 22... & I can load hotter if I choose, as well as pick from a selection of bullets...

I'm having no issues with accuracy... I think a lot of the "problem" with 25 auto, is the guns that it's shot out of... plus, as I developed loads & worked brass, I found a wider than acceptable range of variables with the 25 auto case... R-P brass I'm using, has 3 different sizes of flash holes, & had over .015" case length from factory... on a small cartridge, this will effect accuracy... so, I sorted brass in .003" length groups, & uniformed the flash holes... quite a bit of work to start with, but should only have to be done once...

I've not loaded many yet, but am experimenting with the 35 grain Gold Dots right now, I also have a custom mold my buddy cut, as well as some factory lead bullets, & the normal FMJ bullets...

the Ballistics by the Inch web sight shows 16" is max velocity out of the 25 auto, so a 16" Contender barrel is in the works... MN is still a no "can" state, so I'm working on a quiet small game package that won't require a "can"