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Post by nolongcolt on Jul 23, 2014 16:45:23 GMT -5
I got a real lesson in bad leading today. I was shooting my newly acquired Ruger .357 MAX with lead plain base bullets I got off GB. 190gr, with IMR4227. Started with 18gr, 19 and 20. Noticed groups which started out well enough at 50 yds were growing. Broke it down and looked down bore and it was dirty! Ran a dry patch thru, asked a buddy for a brush and ran that down, then patched again and commenced shooting a few more rounds then it was time to go. Got home and ran some #9 down and a brush. Noticed it looked like a lot of build up of lead at the muzzle and down an inch or so. Got out the old Lewis lead remover and starting with a used screen began to pull it thru. About 3 inches short of the crown it got stuck! Applied a bit more manly power to it and gained a bit so kept on pulling and got stuck hard! Tried to push it back, no go. So now I cant go either way. Well in my various efforts I over tightened the threaded end of the rod and snapped it off! So now I have the screen end with rubber stuck in the bore about 3 inches from the muzzle. Nothing for it but to beat it back down bore. So started with the now useless Lewis rod and a hammer handle I keep around to beat on things with and got it down about an inch, jammed big time. Got out a hammer and finished the job after many whacks. The rubber end of the Lewis was all mangled, the screen ripped in two, (covered with lead!), but got it out, and finished the de-leading with a anti lead cloth into patches, brushes and patches. What a PITA!
Now I am no stranger to revolver shooting and have experienced leading to one degree or another many times in many different guns, but never anything like this! These bullets were sized to .358 but the Brinell if I remember was about 16-18 so guessing too soft for these velocities. I have 50 more of these and will shoot them but either at lower speeds or watching for build up and cleaning sooner, rather than later. Will have to replace my old Lewis remover too.
Fun times at the range!
Talked with the bullet maker and he doesn't like to state Brinell numbers but figures these bullets are around 12 on the scale. He opined there may be a problem with the guns dimensions or that the loads were over maximum. I don't think its either, but rather a too soft bullet being driven too fast.
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Post by contender on Jul 23, 2014 21:47:52 GMT -5
OUCH!!!!!
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Post by trueat1stlight on Jul 24, 2014 0:06:21 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing a valuable lesson, from which I can learn!
-John
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on Jul 24, 2014 3:45:56 GMT -5
I have shot a fair bit of cast bullets and cast about 99.9% of them. They get a bad rap at times and that sounds like this here. Your hardness is plenty. In my findings leading is usually from one of two or threes things. Bore, lube and size. When a person goes to a harder alloy, that is usually a fix for the wrong problem. From your description of the problem that far down the bore, I would guess a crown issue, a restriction or carbon or jacket fouling. If it still persist I would look at size and lube.
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Post by nolongcolt on Jul 24, 2014 11:27:23 GMT -5
In further talks with the bullet seller, he states the bullets he sold me were of a batch of unknown hardness and thinks they were indeed too soft for this application. Crown is fine and bore is free of jacket fouling. Cant say for sure about any restriction but I think it unlikely. He is going to send me some other slugs to try that he says are different mixes and hardness.
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Post by hoover on Jul 24, 2014 12:50:38 GMT -5
Are the bullets in question flat based, or bevel based? Most commercial casters use bevel base molds for ease of casting, the bullets drop out easier, rather than requiring a wrap on the handle hinge pin to knock the bullet out of the mold. Bevel base bullets cannot be driven as fast as flat based bullets because of gas blow by. As jsh mentioned, bore condition is vital. A heavily fouled bore from jacketed bullets is not conducive to good cast bullet results. Soldering consists of heating a softer alloy to a harder metal with flux. Sound familiar? Hot lead bullet, bullet lube, and copper jacket fouling are not a good combo. Scrub your bore clean. As to the lead fouling removal, simply spray your bore with oil of choice, wrap copper chore boy pot scrubber around a well worn bore brush for a snug fit. 10 strokes will knock that lead right out. Shooting the simple, humble cast bullet is very rewarding. I've been doing it 25 years or so, and cast my own. With the cost of todays jacketed bullets, and availability, cast just makes sense for me. Hope this helps.
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Post by nolongcolt on Jul 24, 2014 13:03:03 GMT -5
Well as stated above the bullets were plain or flat based. Also as mentioned above the bore was free of jacket fouling. I too have been shooting cast bullets for many years, this is however my first foray into the MAX round. The first batch of bullets I fired in this gun were gas checked BRP bullets I got off of GB, very little fouling from them. These bullets are just too soft I suspect.
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groo
.327 Meteor
I yet live!!!!
Posts: 855
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Post by groo on Jul 24, 2014 15:27:36 GMT -5
Groo here If the lead was near the muzzle, you maybe running out of lube. Is the boolet one with small lube grooves? Take the boolet and tumble with Lee liquid lube and shoot.
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Post by nolongcolt on Jul 24, 2014 15:44:02 GMT -5
Groo here If the lead was near the muzzle, you maybe running out of lube. Is the boolet one with small lube grooves? Take the boolet and tumble with Lee liquid lube and shoot. That's a thought. Here is a pic of two side by side, one with one groove scraped out. As a very non scientific test, I took a steel scribe that is none too sharp and stuck it in the top of several makers cast bullets to see how far I could stick the scribe. The only thing I could go deeper into than the bullet in question was pure lead muzzleloader balls and a Hornady pure lead bullet. The others varied but all were harder than this particular bullet.
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Post by oldschool on Jul 24, 2014 23:59:15 GMT -5
I think Groo is onto something. Those lube grooves look awfully small! Depending on depth, they may not have nearly enough lube to do the job, especially if you're getting any gas blowby.
In regards to the liquid alox, that's exactly what I'm about to do with some .45 bullets a buddy cast for me. His lube is a homebrew and after sitting on my shelf for a few months, it's literally falling out of the grooves. I'm about to tumble them with some liquid alox so they'll at least not lead anymore.
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Post by nolongcolt on Jul 25, 2014 0:04:33 GMT -5
I sort of doubt I am getting any gas by that flat base with these loads, being soft I am sure they bump up and fill. I think the lube idea is a possibility and I have some Alox I will try when I shoot them again.
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,566
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Post by Fowler on Jul 25, 2014 9:08:49 GMT -5
I don't know the velocities you are getting but I also suspect they are way above 1400fps, I would say at that high of a velocity a gas checked bullet just makes way more since. At max pressures every detail of bullets fit and lube get magnified, the longer the bore the more your asking a lube to hold up to and as others said it sounds to me like it ran out of lube part if the way down the bore.
I cast a bunch of 425gr bullets from air cooled WW lead a few years back to run in his 475, the bullet behaved well enough in my FA but my gun had tighter throats and my barrel was tighter than his as well. So after a box of 64 rounds at a moderate level in his gun I happened to look at his barrel. It was leaded so bad the rifling could not be seen at the muzzle! I flicked a sliver if lead loose with my finger nail that was the complete valley between rifling lands! It was a combination of too soft of a bullet and undersized bullet allowing gases to get around the base and melting the bullet. I bought a new larger sizer and the problem went away but it just showed the critical relationship of bullet hardness, lube, and proper sizing to a given gun.
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Post by bradshaw on Jul 25, 2014 12:15:11 GMT -5
nolongcolt.... potential "soldering effect" Hoover mentions is an image which has long played on my mind... copper... lead... heat... something passing for flux.
An important ingredient of your post is accuracy @ 50 yards. Deteriorating as shooting continues... which should indicate decent barrel and forcing cone, with reasonable chamber-to-bore alignment.
A long column of powder informs the .357 Maximum. When you run .357 Mag pressure----and higher---- with slow powders the gun doesn't mind. However, some bullets will object. The Maximum can be made to spread the skirt of a jacket-forward (FMJ) bullet. Same pressure can sandblast and torch the base of a cast bullet. Early .357 and .44 mag ammo was loaded with one or another variation of gas check. The bullets were much softer than a hard cast bullet. Leading could be, and usually was, severe, particularly in the .357 Magnum. On occasion we used mercury to melt the lead. Those were the days when the teacher encouraged us to play with mercury in class.
"Bullet of unknown origin" in high pressure environment immediately raises suspicion.
I have shot lead out of barrels with jacketed bullets; apparently my revolvers never read articles which condemn the practice.
Try to get the bore at least as clean as the board of health, then take a good look with light and magnification. Ruger Maximums were made in Southport with button rifled 1:16" barrels from the George Wilson company in Connecticut. Not all Wilson barrels are equal. Generally, a rough-but-true bore may be cleaned up with J-B Bore Paste on a cotton flannel patch. I prefer hardwood dowel with a jag carved on the end. Possibly one of the forum members will recommend fire lapping with 1000 grit.
Evidence provided so far points first to bullet, second to bore. Remember, not all bullets like to go fast.
Very important to let us know what happens! David Bradshaw
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Post by nolongcolt on Jul 25, 2014 12:31:04 GMT -5
Thanks for chiming in David. The bore is as least as smooth as most I have seen and looks fine. Chamber throats are .358 +- and these bullets are .358inch. You probably saw above where I did my little faux Brinell test on several bullets, this being the "softest" of several. I also think the lube question is a possibility as groo put forth. The lead at the muzzle after putting 30 rounds of this bullet thru it, was extensive, and if fact filled the grooves for about an inch down from the muzzle, (7.5 bbl). Obviously I wont be doing that again without some addition of Alox or slowing the bullet down. The seller is sending me some other bullets to try out that he states will be harder. First go round with MAX type velocities in a handgun. Much to learn.
Thanks again!
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Post by bradshaw on Jul 25, 2014 13:13:35 GMT -5
nolongcolt.... your .358" chamber exit hole is correct for Ruger Maximums. Good to hear your bore looks fine. As Groo says, them's is tiny grease grooves on your bullets. Perhaps a better lube will help. Against the unknowns, I would load those bullets for lower velocity, perhaps 1,000 fps, which you may do in .38 Special or .357 mag brass.
I'd make up a dummy round with the 190 seated deep in an unprimed Maximum case. If it chambered freely, I'd load a few over 12 or so grains of 2400. Such a load will be slow----and it may be accurate----and should obviate any lead deposit which might occur from .38 Special or .357 Magnum brass. (Expect you have had your fill of cleaning.) Federal brass is thinner than Remington, and may work better with deep seating. Don't worry about crimp; tag on a modest profile or roll crimp. Small pistol primers should work fine. (Use rifle primers for real Maximum loads.) David Bradshaw
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