paulg
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Post by paulg on Feb 26, 2014 17:42:13 GMT -5
What is your protocol when loading for fixed sight revolvers? I know the question is vague, its intetional as I'm looking for as much information and experience as possible. Caliber is of no concern here. Its your answer to your interpretation of the question.
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Fowler
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Post by Fowler on Feb 26, 2014 17:56:12 GMT -5
Generally speaking if you want to lower the POI you shoot ether lighter bullets or drive the bullet faster, or of course if you want to raise the POI then heavier/slower is normally the ticket. Changing loads your load wont move your POI left or right, you have to turn the barrel to do that with any degree of consistency. Is that what you were asking?
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paulg
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Post by paulg on Feb 26, 2014 18:17:24 GMT -5
Any info you want to offer as in bullet, powder, brass selection, regulating etc. Just anything about your process. If you want to specify a certain cartridge and revolver then by all means do so. What is the process behind your loads. Not trying to nail down anything specific.
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Fowler
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Post by Fowler on Feb 26, 2014 19:07:46 GMT -5
OK without knowing exactly what you are going for here, here is my two cents. You ether pick a load and make the gun shoot to it or you let the gun pick the load for you. With a fixed sight gun once that load is determined the gun and load are pretty much married together forever.
Example a: My USFA Single Action Army is a 4 3/4" 45 colt, starting with standard 250gr loads at 825fps or so (try a standard load first, it should be reasonably close for a baseline as it is "standard"), I wanted it to hit on top of the front blade at 25 yards. Shooting it proved that a standard load hit 3-4" high and 3-4" left at 25 yards. From this I tried going to a 230gr bullet at roughly the same speed and now the gun hits 4" to the left but perfect for height. I also found that a 250gr Keith bullet driven to 1025fps will also hit to the same POI as the 230gr load, I am not looking to hunt big game with the gun so the 230gr loads suits me just fine here. Finding two loads that hit the same POI was a pleasant surprise but not typical in my experience Now then I admit I still need to turn the barrel to correct the left hitting but I am waiting till I get the grips I want on it, grips will move POI as well. With the new grips I may find both loads don't hit the same place anymore but we will see.
Example b: I have a 5 1/2" Bisley Vaquero that I wanted to be an all around packing gun in the woods, I wanted something that carried a bit more thump than a standard 250gr bullet did. So I tried some 300 and 335 gr bullets and settled on a very accurate and shootable load of a 335gr LFNGC bullet at 1050fps for the gun. This load hit 6-8" high at 50 yards with the original sights, if it had hit low the front sight could be filed and raise the POI but if it hits high you have to have a taller front sight. My gun was boxed up and sent to Dustin Linebaugh who tuned it and installed a dovetailed drift adjustable front sight and regulated it to my load at 50 yards.
I hope this helps
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paulg
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Post by paulg on Feb 26, 2014 19:26:16 GMT -5
Fowler, sent you a pm. Thanks
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Post by TERRY MURBACH on Feb 27, 2014 9:08:19 GMT -5
SO THAT IS MY PROBLEM, I never had no protocals to load in all the fixed sight SAA's. It was always funny to me to see how much closer they shot to the sights the older I got and the more I shot 'em. NOW, I expect all the fixed sights to shoot very close to the sights and they ALWAYS do. Think about it, YOUR protocal is standing in front of the mirror looking at you too.
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paulg
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Post by paulg on Feb 27, 2014 9:35:52 GMT -5
I spent some time this morning reading Lee's thread building a bench rest rifle. I won't pretend to understand all that he and his father are doing but my simple mind has been able to pick out the basics of what does matter and apply it to my query. There are parallels as Mr. Bradshaw, Lee, Fowler and now Murbach pointed out. No matter the equipment, the fouling round or star of the show is the shooter. My questions often leave me scratching my own head. Not because of difficulty in answering them but because sometimes they are just dumb a$$ questions! But sometimes I'm willing to look stupid in order to become wiser. Thank you for your observations. Paul
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Post by magnumwheelman on Feb 27, 2014 10:24:15 GMT -5
to "generically" answer your question... ( & this is only insight I've gained personally as a reloader & shooter, your results may vary )...
IMO... the best place to start is the most common load, or if a custom revolver, perhaps a mid weight, mid charge load, unless the builder can offer more insight...
for example, most fixed sight 357's are probably are built around mid load level 158 grain bullets, most fixed sight 44 mags around mid level 240 grain bullets...
also, generally, the more recoil, the higher the POI is, the lower recoil, the lower the POI, at least at "normal" pistol ranges of say 50 ft to 50 yards
next heavier / lighter charges & bullets ( which for me, have always followed the more / less recoil train of thought listed above ) seem to make the most difference...
...after this basic, there are minor tweaks in faster / slower powders, & in bullet / jacket material, & bullet style & shape
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Post by magnumwheelman on Feb 27, 2014 10:24:15 GMT -5
sorry... duplicate post
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Post by bigmuddy on Feb 27, 2014 11:26:32 GMT -5
Interesting question. I own and shoot several fixed sight guns and have never really loaded any differently for them. I decide what level I want for that gun, i.e. bullet weight, type, velocity. I work with loads to find the one that closely meets my requirements for that gun/cartridge that is the most accurate. I make sure that I have settled on the grips for that gun. THEN I sight the gun in for the load chosen. I have filed sights, turned barrels, replaced front sights etc. all to make sure the gun hits dead on for my chosen load.
Pretty much the same thing I do with adjustable sights really.
Dan
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 27, 2014 11:35:35 GMT -5
Always ofund it curious that Peacemakers in my hand tended to print a bit low left and that this affect is shared by many others, and the manufacturer never found the slightest curiosity of its own to do anything about it. Not nearly so alarming, however, as the practice of a manufacturer to drag on for decades the reaming of oversize chambers, or the cutting of a grain funnel forcing cone to correct chamber-to-bore offset. Or over reacting to loose throats by making them too tight.
Against this, I have auto pistols which shall never see adjustable sights, including dead nuts SIGs in 9mm, .357 Sig/.40 S&W, and .45 ACP. along with Colt 1911s, to include the Delta Elite. The Delta Elite is a slight exception in that it prints a bit hight at 100 yards, but that is typical of Colt 10mm's I've fired, and does not work to my disadvantage at all----to the inclusion of animal chores, predator "control," and putting venison on the meat pole.
On a hard corps accuracy stick such as the Les Baer 1911 with yonder accuracy crimped by wino trajectory of the .45 ACP, the Bo-Mar is a real asset.
Smith & Wesson has made a great many fixed sight revolvers which routinely shoot to aim, including from big frames to the ubiquitous J-frame sweeties. Not so, Colt snubbies, many----aluminum frames especially----of shabby construction. Nor Ruger's new LCR, which sells faster than cotton candy and fried dough at the country fair. With some of the guns I suddenly see the allure of a laser sight; not for me but for the practice-challenged and gadget-inclined. Besides, how long does that battery last at ZERO temperatures?
Then there is the matter of sight picture. The traditional Peacemaker presents rather reflection-prone aiming surfaces. And a narrow blade, atop which the eye must register. As the eyes age, the table of a wide blade becomes easier to set. This was pointed out to me many years ago by Warren Center, when I asked that the soon-to-be-released 7mm T/C Ugalde come with a .100-inch front blade. "I can barely see that!" exclaimed Mr. Center. "Wait til your eyes are older."
The Dustin Linebaugh single action cure of dovetail front is a good one, especially when at the same time taller is needed.
Twisting the barrel should only be attempted by someone who knows what they're doing, equipped with proper vise and bushings. Cranking tighter on a barrel already over-tightened sounds wrong.
Read of one back yard remedy published years ago in one of the fat annual rags. The expert brought tears of laughter and sorrow to my eyes as he described bending the Colt SAA barrel between V-blocks. Davdi Bradshaw
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Post by seancass on Feb 27, 2014 11:46:14 GMT -5
My questions often leave me scratching my own head. Not because of difficulty in answering them but because sometimes they are just dumb a$$ questions! But sometimes I'm willing to look stupid in order to become wiser. Thank you for your observations. Paul Paul, I don't think you asked a dumb question at all! This could be a good thread on general handloading techniques for changing point of impact. I'm an inexperienced handloader and I have displayed my ignorance all over this forum! Sometimes just a few little pointers can get the ball rolling or connect the dots in your head. Some little pieces of advice from a seemingly dumb question can really help bring it all together. Hope you found some answers here. If not, search around the site and then ask a more specific question. Pretty good chance there is somebody here with the answer. Oh, and my protocol for loading a fixed sight revolver? It's the same as for any revolver. Find a good looking bullet, preferably one with a tested track record. Order it, because I don't cast. Wait anxiously hoping i bought the right thing. Look up every piece of load data I can find. Compare said load data with available selection of powders. Search for more load data. Find a good looking Starting load. Do happy dance when bullets arrive. Find some brass, clean it, size and deprime it, prime it, expand the mouth, add some powder, seat and crimp bullet. Then wait around for a chance to go to the range. Go to range and shoot load. Do happy dance when the gun doesn't explode in my hand. Shoot the load a bunch more. If I made more than one load, compare them. If not, ponder moving up from the starting load. Depending on caliber, I may take pictures of the results and post them on the internet for all to see. I save the targets, write all the load and range info on the back, then store them away in a three ring binder. If I really liked the load for some reason, I'll write it down on the front page of the binder, along with notes about why I liked it. Each binder is caliber specific. Now the bad part is that I've wasted a lot of time and powder trying to make wrong bullets work. I need to do more to fit my bullets to the specific gun. Accuracy suffers and leading occurs. So I have to spend too much time cleaning. Someday I'll be smert enough to size my bullets correctly to the gun and save a lot of time there. Fortunately, a bad day of shooting still beats most anything else, so I don't mind. Every once in a while, I'll stumble upon a great load combo. Anywho, that's my protocol!
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Post by nolongcolt on Feb 27, 2014 11:52:43 GMT -5
I am going thru this very thing right now with the Ruger Bis Vaq .45 Colt I just acquired. When I started it shot high with some 300gr loads with H110 and low with 255gr loads with Unique. Both shot left a fair amount at 25 yds. Grouping wise it shows the most promise with the Uni/255 load, 9.5grs looks good. Not being equipped as stated above to turn the barrel and owing to Ruger at least having a pretty thick front sight blade to start with I go with the file method. I now have it at just a tad left at 25 and will when I get more 255 bullets ordered from Rimrock, dial it in for elevation and final group testing. Blade is now a bit tapered and thinner than I would have perhaps preferred but acceptable. Looks like a Uberti SAA blade. Shoots well otherwise. I should also mention I give my front side blades the Seyfried treatment of filing an angled flat on the back top corner of those light bouncing radius edges. I then file in a series of grooves left to right to help with glare. I dont do it as pretty as Ross does, but it helps.
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Post by magnumwheelman on Feb 27, 2014 16:26:29 GMT -5
I've never done it, but always thought, why not widen the rear notch on the appropriate side, rather than thin the blade or twist the barrel to the point that it's noticeable that the blade leans blued guns would require at minimum cold blueing the sight groove, which I might understand the reason to avoid, but a stainless gun, either satin or polished, I wouldn't see that as possibly the best way to move the POI sideways
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Cholla
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Post by Cholla on Feb 27, 2014 20:59:30 GMT -5
Over the last 1 1/2 years or so, I've fallen in hopelessly in love with single actions and have subsequently had a crash course in shooting them!
In my experience, a feller that's new to SA's needs to shoot the snot out of them before attempting to make any adjustments to sights, etc. In other words, make sure you learn how to shoot them consistently first.
After acquiring a measure of proficiency, my protocol has been to find a hunting load with ample power and accuracy, the file/adjust the sights to it. After that, I'll find a good target/practice/plinking load which typically shoots close enough to my hunting load to be useful for practice.
Cholla
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