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Post by AxeHandle on Feb 22, 2014 11:09:39 GMT -5
Any of you guys developed an accurate 9mm cast bullet load that you'd be willing to share? Bullet, powder, brass, primer, barrel, seating and crimp detail would be nice. Want an accuracy definition to start? Looking for sub 1 inch groups at 50 yards. No new ground here. The NRA action and PPC shooters should have worked it all out years ago. Just need to get them to let the cat out of the bag. FWIW the rest of us know the 9mm won't shoot!
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Post by TERRY MURBACH on Feb 22, 2014 12:36:41 GMT -5
EVEN my SIG P210-5 will NOT do that with the finest of tested handloads the testing of which consumed 10M primers. THERE ARE NO MAGIC LOADS and you cannot expect someone to do your work for you, Sir.
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Post by AxeHandle on Feb 22, 2014 14:27:26 GMT -5
Well now Terry, I'm thinking that if you bought the SIG 210-5 for accuracy you should consider sending it back. That is unless all the rave reviews the gun rags print about that gun are no more than smoke and mirrors. I always figured they were. Of course another thought is if that is as good as you can get the SIG to shoot I sure don't want any of your handload information. FWIW The 45 ACP 1911s provided to me by the National Guard MTU routinely shoot X ring groups at 50 yards. The NGMTU armorer built me a 38 Super that shoots inside the X ring at 50 yards with a jacketed bullet. Anyone else find it odd that a national match shooter can give me a load that will shoot a possible in his gun that usually proves to be capable of shooting a possible in mine too? Not me!
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Post by sixshot on Feb 22, 2014 19:55:37 GMT -5
Stan, I don't think the loads are the problem, its just that 9mm guns aren't normally built for match grade accuracy like the good 45's, etc. I recently picked up a S&W 9mm in the M&P model. the guy behind the counter told me it had a "match" grade barrel, I replied that it didn't make much sense in a gun with a $5 trigger, he didn't appreciate my sense of humor. No doubt it can be done (Les Baer, etc) on a 1911 frame but not sure if there's much of a market for that type of gun, sure would be fun though & with your bullseye skills might be pretty easy.
Dick
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Post by AxeHandle on Feb 22, 2014 20:25:40 GMT -5
Thanks Dick... Just picked up a new 9mm Springfield Range Officer to play with. Anything to save a few bucks on brass, lead, and powder. Planning to set it up to play draw and shoot games with. Talked about putting a Barsto barrel in it until a buddy, who owns a bullet casting company, reminded me that the Barsto barrels have earned a reputation for NOT shooting cast bullets well. First things first though. We'll see what the stock barrel will do next week. If it shoots decent it will go back to Springfield for frontstrap checkering and hard chrome. If it shoots bad we will rebarrel it too. So far as loads go I'm just running out feelers. Never know when someone is going to come up with something special that really works. I'll have John Farley's loading specs next week.
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Post by Seasons44 on Feb 22, 2014 20:32:17 GMT -5
Axe,
Have you shot the 226's? I don't think I have shot one which hasn't been accurate with a host of loads, I don't shoot alot of 9, but a load that has worked well for my shooting partner has been
Power Pistol, 5 grains underneath a 147
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Post by serialsolver on Feb 22, 2014 20:45:37 GMT -5
Axe maybe it's time to try a hi power.
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Post by AxeHandle on Feb 22, 2014 21:35:16 GMT -5
While not what I have in mind the 226/228/229 SIG products do have a reputation for exceptional out of the box accuracy. Played with one of the 229 Sport Pistols years ago. Helped me to understand that I don't fit the SIG trigger well. Not quite sure I'm up to the the High Power's trigger either..
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Post by zeus on Feb 22, 2014 21:39:50 GMT -5
Axe. I had a springer 9mm years ago that was a tackdriver. I think you will love it plus there are better mags easily found now days. I never shot it for a group at 50 but at 25, it was very capable. The sigs I owned have been exceptionally accurate. The 357 sig is awesome but not cheap to shoot
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Post by curmudgeon on Feb 23, 2014 0:19:52 GMT -5
Had a 210-5 Got from Gil Nebard about 65-'70. played with a bunch of jacketed bullets, would do 1" at 50 yds if I did my part. Was. And the 1" groups were from a rest, two hands. is that cheating ? still full of pi-- and vinegar back then and could see too. Great gun. I think it was about 500 then. Gil said he couldn't sell enough 500 pistols to keep the franchise so he let it go. That's the Gil Hebard.
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Post by curmudgeon on Feb 23, 2014 0:22:47 GMT -5
Had a 210-5 Got from Gil Nebard about 65-'70. played with a bunch of jacketed bullets, would do 1" at 50 yds if I did my part. Was. And the 1" groups were from a rest, two hands. is that cheating ? still full of pi-- and vinegar back then and could see too. Great gun. I think it was about $ 500 then. Gil said he couldn't sell enough $500 pistols to keep the franchise so he let it go. That's the Gil Hebard.
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 23, 2014 9:19:25 GMT -5
Stan's loquacity is exceeded only by his diverse appetite for pistol knowledge. ACCURACY remains the most difficult criteria to establish for handguns. With rifles the cartoon measure is 1-inch @ 100 yards, with desired measurement shifting up or down from there, depending on discipline----or action, or cartridge. With handguns the cartoon distance is 25 yards. Some of us years ago forced it to 50 yards and more, my own personal efforts seeking to set the cartoon distance at 100 yards and/or meters, and then 200 meters for what, in chronograph lingo, Kenneth Oehler calls the "proof channel."
Reason being I was unable----not a good enough shot----to discern the difference between a serious and and so-so load at 25 yards, nor the dirty little truth that certain bullets and load and rifling combinations have an unusual ability to hang tight at long range and these rounds inspire me to, with blind luck, shoot tighter.
The 1-inch group @ 50 yards stands an indicator of extreme accuracy from a revolver and, especially, an auto pistol.
Lee Jurras has no reason to apologize for 80-year old eyes lacking the resolution of eyeballs thirty or forty years younger. I fight the same degradation and cheat every way I can, stepping over there to shade the iron sights, any combination of squinting. As he neared the tenure of his life, gunfighter Bill Jordan faced serious deterioration of eyesight. For a man who had done it all, that is a grim ride.
A few very crude notes on 9mm Luger accuracy: The SIG 210 aside----my experience is too limited to comment beyond its saturated quality----I have shot Lugers which shot damn tight with cast bullets at 200 yards; shot my SIG/Sauer P226 in an IHMSA match with, as I recall, Winchester subsonic 147 JHP, holding quite a bite of front sight and hitting 6x10 rams at 200 yards (rams not in meters). Browning P-35's have varied dramatically in out-of-box accuracy. A Vermont State Trooper drilled at rabbit at 90 yards with his. I had an accurate P-35, which accounted for many rabbits, all shot much closer than the trooper's. (Could not long carry that pistol, as the 9mm Luger is just too light for all-around chores.)
At a big IHMSA match at Pelham, New Hampshire, I put the crimp on 7x10 turkeys @ 165 yards with the little SIG P229 .357 Sig. Load: Federal 125 JHP. This P229 with 3.8" barrel and Trijicon sights groups 6-inches at 100 yards numerous loads. Hornady 147 JHP an horrendous exception, spraying shots 12-inches and worse, telling me the little no-neck bottleneck .357 Sig doesn't cotton to "heavy" bullets.
But these are NOT 1-inch guns @ 50 yds.
The Heckler & Koch P7, with fixed barrel, is a VERY accurate 9mm Luger. With a fine trigger. Alas, it is an obnoxiously noisy squeeze-cocker, German engineering run amok. David Bradshaw
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Post by TERRY MURBACH on Feb 23, 2014 9:32:25 GMT -5
LEE, THE CLINKER IS, Axe wanted to shoot into an inch with CAST bullets from the 9MM. It's damn near easy to do with jacketed bullets and my CZ85 will darn near do it as is with several different loads. Do you remember those 9MM 108GR JFP bullets you gave me back in '66 or '67 ?? THEY'LL DO IT !! My FN BR. GP COMPETITION would do it with some 125gr JFP FMJTC bullets that hornady[?] made back when. BUT not a damn one of those guns would do it with any CAST bullets I tested. SURE, every now'n'again you'll get the group where 5 or 7 are in one hole but those blankety blank @###$@@*&@ flyers will screw it up everytime !!! OH, when I found out the BR GP COMP BBl was.3572" on it's I.D. and I used some 38/357 .358" bullets things looked up nicely, but I also think that 1/10 twist in that BBL did not help one bit.
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cmillard
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MOLON LABE
Posts: 1,951
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Post by cmillard on Feb 23, 2014 10:20:49 GMT -5
axehandle--if that barrel doesn't shoot up to par, I am partial to Kart. I have tried Bar-sto and they were alright. I have heard KKM makes an excellent barrel
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Post by AxeHandle on Feb 23, 2014 14:09:42 GMT -5
Now we have some useful postings! My 38 Super has a Kart barrel as do my 45 Wadcutter 1911s. The tale once was that the kart barrel made a better wadcutter gun (185-200 grain SWCs) barrel while the Barsto barrel made a better hardball gun (Service load with 230 FMJ) barrel. My 1911 built for shooting service pistol has a Barsto barrel in it. It was the owner operator of Magnus Bullet Company that told the most recent tale to me about Bartso barrels not shooting cast bullets well. In addition to making and selling cast bullets all day every day for the last 25+ years he is a shooter. He is member of the NRA 2650 club which is shooting better than 2650 out of a 2700 possible. Shot the score with his cast bullets too. It is good enough for me that he says Barsto won't shoot cast bullets. All that said we have an opportunity with him to try multiple sizes and hardnesses to see if we can make something work. As I play with my new Springfield Range Officer I'll start out with what we know about loading for a 9mm. Actually plan to shoot factory jacketed through it to acquire a baseline next week. If it doesn't show out on paper we will send it out for a new barrel. As a long time vision impaired shooter, the best unaided vision I remember is 20/200, I'm now in my 6th decade and am learning the value of a good Merit peep on my glasses for iron sights. When iron's aren't required my standard fix is glass. I like a Burris 2X, with the Gil Hebard dot, on a dustcover mount. Shot the slide mount for 10 years but got tired of dealing with the extra weight on the slide. I've actually got a pair of 9mm 1911s in the works configured just like the one below.
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