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Post by bradshaw on Oct 5, 2017 19:13:19 GMT -5
Lee.... High Power shooters used Sierra 125 Spitzers some years ago @ 100 & 200 yards. Some folk even shot them Rapid Fire prone @ 300 yards. shot Speer 125 Hollow Point with good results, as well. As Charles says, these were shot far from bench rest.
On the subject of reboring: to rebore a barrel sounds like a nightmare of influences for rifle accuracy. A revolver, with short stiff barrel & low vibration, is one thing. The rifle dynamic a complete other.
David Bradshaw
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Post by squigz on Oct 6, 2017 13:59:14 GMT -5
Man for some reason that cartridge just speaks to me. I love the looks of it.
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ProGun
.30 Stingray
Posts: 246
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Post by ProGun on Oct 11, 2017 11:53:56 GMT -5
Been checking everyday for the update on how the 30 Stingray did last weekend...
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Post by Lee Martin on Oct 11, 2017 19:49:42 GMT -5
Been checking everyday for the update on how the 30 Stingray did last weekend... Match #15 – VFS 100 Yard, Mechanicsville VA _________________________________________________ The .30 Stingray wasn’t sharp but I figured out why. When tuning the prior week, I got a lot of 2 in one hole with one walking out. I chalked those up to a poor load. Eventually, I found a combination that printed well as shown on page 42. You’ll soon see why I was lucky in the bullets pulled for those 3-shot groups. At Saturday’s match, the gun would 10 ring then occasionally stray 0.5” or more. Conditions were mild and my flag reads were solid. Once the shooting was over, I talked to a friend and accomplished score competitor. He asked about the load I shot. When I got to the part about Speer TNTs, he responded with, “Now you sorted them on bearing surface, right?” Well, I hadn’t. I was in a rush and seated them straight from the box. I later measured them on a .30-cal ogive gauge and was shocked. I knew there would be some variation, perhaps 2 – 3 thou. These are bulk varmint bullets and they aren’t swaged on the same machine. Instead I found a total spread of 0.0135”. 1.0625”  1.077”  That much delta can have a profound effect on POI. When tuning my 6 PPC, I can see impact shifts in seating increments of 0.005”. So I’m taking Friday off and re-testing the TNTs batched on bearing surface. I’m also trying Sierra’s 125 gr Match King. The IBS Virginia State Championships are Saturday and Sunday. I have one day to figure this out. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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Post by Lee Martin on Nov 2, 2017 19:40:28 GMT -5
.30 Stingray Update ___________________________________ The cartridge shows promise, in spite of bullet inconsistency. To recap, there's 0.013" bearing surface variation in one lot of Speer TNTs. Before the IBS Virginia State Championships, I sorted them with an ogive gauge and it helped. I was on the 10-ring for the first 3 records until one bullet went 9. I stayed 10 the rest of the day. That may not have been Speer’s fault, but it wasn’t the flag read, bag tracking, or trigger pull. Those were dead on. A few days later, I visually inspected a pile of TNTs. About every 6 to 7 were dented. You’ll notice a nick at the top of its shank. Speer also used too much lube, as evidenced by point creases. These may not affect accuracy, but they don't build confidence.  Truth be told, these are pretty good for what they are – moderately priced, thin jacketed, bulk varmint bullets. I’m probably asking too much from them. I have one more match this Saturday shooting Speer. Two thousand Bart Sauter 112 gr X-Outs arrive in a matter of days. I’ll work with those until my dies are done (I spoke with George Ulrich and he’s close). I’ve also switched to leather bags for my Farley and Sinclair rests. In VFS, I’m seeing more horizontal than I’d like. Missed X’s are predominately left and right, not vertically strung. That suggests the gun is in tune. The horizontal is likely from wind push and bag support. Up until now, I’ve shot Cordura under dryer sheets. The gun tracks like it’s on ice with that set-up, but it may be too much of a good thing. The .30 recoils faster and I suspect small tracking anomalies are being amplified. Those anomalies could emanate from: 1) Not enough front and rear side support 2) Lateral influences in trigger pull and follow through I’m still testing, but my approach is two-fold. First, I want to slow the gun on the bags. Whereas dryer sheets occasionally move on Cordura, they grab leather. It’s a small difference, but I’m noticing less recoil velocity on leather. Secondly, I’ve increased my forend tension and rear ear height. My old Edgewood is 3/8” double stitch between Cordura bunny ears. I’m now using a Protektor Dr. model. It features an integral doughnut bottom comprised of 4 layers of stiff leather. The higher rabbit ears are leather, separated by 1/2” triple stitching. This sits on their bag stabilizer for added support. My initial assessment after one day of practice? The .30 seems to do better on cow hide. Protektor Dr. model rear bag. The front bag and arm rests are also by Protektor.   -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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Post by cherokeetracker on Nov 2, 2017 20:30:57 GMT -5
That's wild about the point creases. I have never witnessed that before. You just taught me something ! I would not have known, what caused that. Thanks. I am also sorry to hear that about those bullets. I have not had problems with them, but I was not shooting Benchrest either.
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Post by bradshaw on Nov 3, 2017 8:51:37 GMT -5
Lee may be out-shooting these Speer varmint bullets. In any normal shooting, no one would notice a minor flaw. A bullet must withstand its life in the barrel to survive flight. Varmint bullets are built to come apart. Who among varmint shooters hasn’t seen the PUFF as a .the bullet from a 22-250 or .220 Swift vaporizes 50 or 75 yards from the muzzle. Hell, I’ve watched first generation Nosler Ballistic Tips come apart when fired from a T/C Contender 7mm TCU with rough rifling. The effect is not as dramatic as the aerobic destruction of a hyper-V .22. Nevertheless, the fragile 7mm started at 1.900 fps breaks apart, splattering three or four fragments on a steel turkey @ 165 yards without knocking it over.
The dent in Lee's Speer bullet occurs repeated throughout a box. Add in variations in bearing surface and ogive and we have variables as out of control as the wind. Having shot my share of inferior bullets, I happen to believe in this instance that Lee is out-shooting his projectile. It is maddening. All you can do is KEEP SHOOTING, change nothing in your technique. Most of all, do not chase the last bullet. Lee’s trigger squeeze is not at issue, not unless he was pumping iron an hour before stepping to the line.
Some friction is necessary to secure accuracy in the presence of recoil. No way around it, a .30 recoils more than a .22. I suspect BARREL TIME is longer for the .30. A hair more friction on the bag may be a good thing.
Variations in ogive/bearing surface of the Speer varmint bullet alter seat of projectile into rifling----as bolt is closed. Which may affect the moment recoil begins in relation to barrel harmonics. Variation in ogive may influence ignition to some degree, especially since neck tension is light. Whether variation in dynamic balance exists to poison flight, I cannot say.
David Bradshaw
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Post by bigbrowndog on Nov 3, 2017 9:15:27 GMT -5
A few of my more enthusiastic gunfriends and I were having a discussion the other day about barrels, accuracy, and rounds down range. We were discussing good rounds and bad rounds in relation to barrel life, when one of the group grabbed a calculator and did some figuring. I don't recall exactly the number but I was astonished by the low figure, regarding barrel life in actual minutes!!! If I recall correctly he used 2500fps, as well as 3000fps and the barrel life was something on the order of one and a half to two minutes. Of course other factors can affect that time a bit, but when you look at it using actual bullet in barrel time, it's amazing that we get as much enjoyment from this sport as we do.
Trapr
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Post by Lee Martin on Nov 13, 2017 20:33:03 GMT -5
The .30 Stingray & Good Bullets ______________________________________ I received two-thousand 112 gr X-Outs from Bart Sauter last Tuesday. But I didn’t have time to try them before Saturday’s 200-yard match. So I shot one more event with 125 gr Speers. Glad to be done with them. Two weeks ago I finished 14th out of 19 at Black Creek. The conditions weren’t that bad, but again the bullets weren’t on. They’d 10-ring, occasionally X, then throw a flier. I dropped two points on the day, both across silent flags with perfect pulls. Then this past Saturday, we started the 200-yard Winter League at Fairfax. I finished 9th out of 13. Trust me, I’m not putting it all on the bullet. I’m competing against guys that are more experienced BR shooters. Still, it’s hard to line up when you’re not confident in your equipment. Some photos from Black Creek, 11/4/17. They recently began a Winter League the first Saturday of every month. If you’re close to Richmond, VA and want to try VFS, come out. It is very well run.     I did test Bart's 112 gr in the .30 Stingray and they flat shoot. This was over a 2.0 gr span of LT-30 with one seating depth. Instead of a hard seat, I pushed them back 0.010” from jam. A couple of things to note: • The fouling bull – upper left was through a cold barrel. The next two went in the same hole. I adjusted the scope to 12:00 on the mothball and moved to the upper left • Once I find a node or two on charge, I’ll adjust seating depth up and down to see if things tighten • 33.0 grains isn’t max. I pre-loaded and stopped at that weight because I didn’t know the pressure curve. The case holds 34.3 with the 112 grain, slightly compressed. I should have no trouble hitting 3,000 fps • 32.6 – very little vertical. The left shot was wind push. I purposely didn’t hold off on a moderate right-to-left • These 3-shot groups appear bigger than they are. Remember, the middle is only 0.500” in diameter. Stick 3 in that circle, subtract 0.308”, and you’re in the 2’s. Having shot 6mm for so long, I still getting used to bigger holes • Lab Radar results are shown below   Considering how hard the wind was blowing, these are impressive results. Next time I’ll try 33.3, 33.6, 34.0, and 34.3 (unless I get hard bolt lift). I’ll also re-test the charges that printed well on 11/12 before moving to seating depth. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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Post by Lee Martin on Nov 22, 2017 19:40:54 GMT -5
Railgun Update _______________________________ The Jay Young rail won’t arrive until early ’18, but I’m amassing parts. I started with the action. In the interest of time, and my dad’s sanity, we’re not building our own. Instead, I ordered a Stolle-Panda from Kelbly Rifles. Ralph Stolle was a Washington DC native and Panda roots began in my home town of Arlington. In 1961, our friend Homer Culver built an aluminum benchrest action. It was round and had a steel inserts for the main threads, lug abatements, and extraction cam. Homer was good friends with Ralph, who was an accomplished machinist and benchrest shooter. Stolle asked Culver if he could use his aluminum design, combined with Culver’s flat-bottom pattern from an earlier steel. With Homer’s help, the basis for the Panda was formed. The year was 1970. Stolle suffered a heart-attack in 1979 and moved to George Kelbly’s place in Ohio. By 1981, Panda production resumed at Kelbly’s and continued after Ralph’s passing in 1982. Due to its longevity, the Panda is one of the winningest BR receivers of all-time. I ordered the action in August and took delivery yesterday. The options I selected: • Left handed, coned bolt, PPC bolt face • Tom Griffin, manual style ejector. Unlike the spring loaded, you can control ejection distance by the speed at which you cycle the bolt • Left rear micro ejection port. Their spring loaded ejector has the port farther forward • Right main loading port • Spiral fluted bolt body • 0.030” offset trigger hanger. This is the standard position for the Bix N Andy trigger (which I still need to buy) Photo 1 – Left, rear micro ejection port.  Photo 2 – Right main loading port. The action body is aluminum and the underside is flat. Also note the integral dovetail scope base (which isn’t used on a rail)  Photo 3 – a close-up of the hardened steel extraction cam insert.  Photo 4 – coned PPC bolt head with TG ejector.  Some of you may wonder, why aluminum? Simple – you get more bedding footprint on an action that’ll still make 10.5 lb varmint class. Ease of machining is another plus. Those advantages won’t factor into this unlimited build. But this Panda is beautifully done and will hang well behind a 1.450” Lederer barrel. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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Post by bradshaw on Nov 23, 2017 5:58:41 GMT -5
Lee.... a jawbone on the fixed ejector would be instructive. Of course, a fixed ejector allows the extractor to pull the fired case straight back, to not drag case mouth against receiver ring. In building my first Unlimited pistol, an XP-100 which would set the 80x80 Record, Skip Talbot cut a few coils off the ejector spring. Shells dropped beside the pistol in Creedmoor, a huge convenience. Since then I’ve done the same thing on bolt pistols, notably a super accurate XP-100 which Elgin Gates rechambered from 7mm BR Stekl (7mm BR Remington) to 7mm IHMSA.
Often, the length of ejector protrusion through the bolt face affects throw as much as speed of bolt retraction.
Detail of build elevates your documentation to high importance towards understanding the complexity of the ultra-simple bolt action. I, too, want to know the working of that adjustable-throw ejector. Along with the principle of the coned bolt, which I think would be problematic if applied to magazine feed, but which holds a place on the bench. As the cone does not actually contact the barrel face, what does it contribute?
David Bradshaw
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Post by cherokeetracker on Nov 23, 2017 8:14:26 GMT -5
Lee.... You have My ear bent too. Ready for details.....
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Post by Lee Martin on Nov 23, 2017 13:21:02 GMT -5
David / Charles – the bolt face matches a cone cut into the barrel tenon. This acts as a mild ramp and aids fast cycling. And with railguns, it’s all about speed. Since you don’t have to re-aim, when a condition holds, let ‘em fly. I’ve seen video of guys getting 5 off in well under 30 seconds. Here’s the schematic:  The TG ejector is simple and effective. There’s no spring, just a lever that pivots on a cross-pin. At the rear of the action, the bolt release button contains another pin that protrudes. When the bolt hits it, the ejector moves forward. It offers these advantages: 1) You can control how far, and how fast, the spent case ejects. This is particularly helpful when shooting on different size benches. From what I’m told, a soft cycle won’t even kick it through the port. A hard pull sends it 90 degrees and possibly off the bench. Cutting the spring on a standard Remington style works fine. But you’re still stuck with one ejection speed. The only downside to the TG is you have to be consistent when cycling the action. 2) They’re less prone to malfunction or sticking when grit gets trapped 3) They impart no force on the case-head in battery. Now some say spring ejectors hurt accuracy by applying off-axis push to the rim. That’s never been proven and is total BS in my opinion. But the TG does help when you’re sizing cases on feel. With no forward force, you can tell when the shoulder just clears the chamber. Of course, bump gauges do the same thing. 4) Most importantly, they chuck the case straight out the port. There’s no chance for bind if the rim doesn’t clear the extractor when it reaches the hole. Good questions and I hope this helps. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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Post by cherokeetracker on Nov 23, 2017 22:33:24 GMT -5
That was a simple concise explanation. The bolt, reverts back to the KISS Method of things.
Charles.
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Post by Lee Martin on Dec 6, 2017 19:59:56 GMT -5
Match #19 – VFS, Mechanicsville, VA 100 Yard Winter League, Match II ______________________________________________ This was my first match with the 112 gr X-Outs. Unlike the Speers, there were no flyers and I shot a clean 250. I tied for 10th on score, but my friend Cyril took me on Creedmoor. 11th and an “IBS 250 Club” decal was still a good day. The X’s I missed were mainly because I didn’t hold off enough. Five skirted the dot by a few hundredths, and I can live with that. I’d rather it be on the shooter than the gun or components. Session II of the 200-yard Winter League is this Saturday. I’m curious to see how the 112’s do farther out.     -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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