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Post by 45coltnut on Aug 22, 2013 9:27:40 GMT -5
Hello,
I'm thinking of fire lapping my bisley 45colt in hopes of increasing accuracy. I'll say first, that the gun may not need it. But, I thought it may not hurt it either. However, this is part of the question that I'll pose to everyone here.
I will state that my barrel doesn't lead too much. I'm mainly considering this for accuracy improvements.
So, first off I've read up on the process of fire lapping and the equipment/tools needed. But, I still have a few questions and concerns. For the materials, I think I'll go with the Beartooth lapping bullets and compound. My thoughts are to slug the barrel after lapping to ensure I'm using the right size of cast lead in the future. And I may need to resize my cylinder throats. They are currently .4525" now. Hopefulle, my barrel is a good .452" only so that I can order standard sized bullets.
My first question is, I'm not sure if my barrel has any restrictions in it. So, if I fire lap it how do I know when enough is enough? Simply by accuracy / leading improvements?
Also, I assume I should slug the barrel at some point after a sesson of fire lapping to ensure I dont' go too far. Correct?
Any help on the proper method of fire lapping and inspection/verificaiton is much appreciated.
Craig |
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,559
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Post by Fowler on Aug 22, 2013 10:53:13 GMT -5
It would be a extremely rare factory barrel that does not have some thread choke in the barrel. From some of what you have said I assume you have read Fermin's excellent article of fire lapping barrels www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm. I have lapped a couple of guns and it is a messy time consuming process but it greatly improved both guns I tried this on. Their leading habits were greatly reduced and the clean up chore when they do is night and day better while seeing some accuracy improvments from both guns. Neither gun has had enough lapping to make the barrels perfect but the improvments are obvious even without taking the guns all the way to a perfect barrel. I wouldnt open your throats anymore than where they are though they should be just right and lapping will not change this markedly. Follow Fermin's advice in the story and you wont go wrong, he may chime in here shortly with more information... |
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Post by 45coltnut on Aug 22, 2013 10:58:22 GMT -5
Awesome. Thank Fowler.
Yep, I have read that article several times. That article is what sparked this.
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Post by brushpopper on Aug 22, 2013 13:58:52 GMT -5
According to Ed Harris who was an Engineer at Ruger, they stopped using crush fit threads about 1990 and went to a locking compound to keep the barrel tight in the frame. Firearms made after the switch that have "thread chokes" are defective and should be sent back to Ruger and they will fix them.
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,559
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Post by Fowler on Aug 22, 2013 16:20:23 GMT -5
According to Ed Harris who was an Engineer at Ruger, they stopped using crush fit threads about 1990 and went to a locking compound to keep the barrel tight in the frame. Firearms made after the switch that have "thread chokes" are defective and should be sent back to Ruger and they will fix them. Ha they want all of them back? Wow... |
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Post by 98redline on Aug 25, 2013 20:03:09 GMT -5
I can tell you from very recent personal experience that firelapping, done correctly, does work very well. Using Fermin's writeup as a guide I firelapped my 44mag SBH Bisley Hunter. The gun had a propensity to lead severely just after the forcing cone, it didn't matter which bullets I used or how slow I pushed them, the leading showed up within 10 rounds and accuracy began to suffer. Slugging showed a throat diameter of .4315 on all throats and a groove diameter of .430 with a noticeable constriction right at the barrel threads. ...100 firelapping loads later I shot this 4 shot group at 100 yards  The group measures 2.35" center to center. I am confident that the gun is capable of better groups, but with a 1X red dot, I can't see well enough to shoot them. At the 25 yard line it was cutting out 3 shot cloverleafs. There is no evidence of leading, even after 50 shots. Other than a few flecks of what appears to be either powder residue or possibly bullet lube, the bore is bright an shiny. As far as Ruger saying that a thread choke is grounds for return, I also would need to pack up all of my Rugers and send them back. Every single one of them has some form of constriction under the barrel threads. I would say that in very severe cases, Ruger might perform a warranty replacement on the barrel, however I believe the difference between what the members of this forum and what Ruger QC consider unacceptable thread choke is probably fairly sizable. |
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Post by 45coltnut on Aug 25, 2013 21:07:36 GMT -5
98redline, That's a fine looking bisley and group! I'm glad to hear that fire lapping worked so well for you. I have my kit coming now from beartooth bullets. Hopefully, I'll begin my fire lapping later this week. I did slug my barrel today and can tell I have a restriction at the threads to frame area. I'm not sure how much it is as this is my first slugging that I've ever done. But, I could tell it was there. I did order a few pin gauges yesterday, so I'll be able to decern within .001" the amount of restriction. Today, I loaded up 100 rounds of just standard 45 colt loads using trailboss. I needed to do this for several reasons. 1 - all of my brass was already sized and primed. So, I needed some fire formed cases for the fire lapping sessions. 2 - I wanted to fully understand the amount of leading and when accuracy starts to degrade. 3 - I just love to reload. It's relaxing to me  So, at the range I was surprised at well the gun was shooting. But, after about 3 cylinders of shooting accuracy dropped quickly. Groups opened up from 2" at 25 yds to 4". But, I kept shooting and having fun. Upon inspection at home, I can see the leading in the first 1" of the riflings. So, I hope to cure this with the fire lapping and hopefully it will the accuracy for more shots. I'll keep everyone updated later this week. I also appreciate all of the help from the forum! Good shooting. Craig |
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bud
.30 Stingray
Posts: 233
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Post by bud on Aug 26, 2013 7:58:28 GMT -5
With a groove diameter of .452 and throats of .4525 I would be reluctant to fire lap. I would just use JB paste and a dowel to hand polish the throats and a cloth wrapped cleaning brush soaked with JB paste to polish the lands 'n grooves. In my opinion, fire lapping should only be used if your revolver is rough as a cob with visible (magnifying glass) tooling marks.
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Post by bradshaw on Aug 27, 2013 8:48:25 GMT -5
Long before most of us were born, the old timer would slug his barrel before ordering a mold. The presence of a compression ring, formed when thread timing is incorrect at the barrel is over-tightened at manufacture, now constitutes a major motive to slug. By gently pounding an egg sinker or other pure lead slug down the lightly lubed bore, a tight spot is easily detected. By aligning the grooves in the slug and pushing the slug through by hand, a tight spot may be verified and its location measured. The revolver should be shot for groups BEFORE fire lapping.
98redline.... when your revolver prints cloverleafs at 25 yds, and sub-2.5 inch groups at a football field, you have a keeper. Providing a dead steady letoff, the so-called "flier" or "fouling shot" must have been fired with oil in the bore.
JB Bore Paste is great for polishing out roughness in an otherwise true bore, but it will not correct a compression ring at frame/barrel juncture, nor correct compression from a heavy roll mark.
David Bradshaw
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Post by 98redline on Aug 27, 2013 9:55:54 GMT -5
98redline.... when your revolver prints cloverleafs at 25 yds, and sub-2.5 inch groups at a football field, you have a keeper. Providing a dead steady letoff, the so-called "flier" or "fouling shot" must have been fired with oil in the bore. That was in fact the case. I had just completed the last 24 firelapping rounds followed by a thorough scrubbing of the bore. I am sure there was still Hoppes in the barrel for the first shot. |
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Post by Markbo on Sept 9, 2013 15:12:50 GMT -5
...JB Bore Paste is great for polishing out roughness in an otherwise true bore, but it will not correct a compression ring at frame/barrel juncture, nor correct compression from a heavy roll mark.David Bradshaw.... Will standard fire lapping accomplish that? My gut tells me it would take a LOT of fire lapping to correct thread restriction |
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bud
.30 Stingray
Posts: 233
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Post by bud on Sept 9, 2013 15:53:12 GMT -5
Firelapping nor JB bore paste will correct a barrel compression. I have a NM 41 BH that came with 6.5" barrel. It was .4082 at the muzzle but .410 up to that point. Sent back to Ruger 'n had it replaced with a 4 5/8" one what was 'n is just fine now.
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Post by 45coltnut on Sept 9, 2013 21:31:30 GMT -5
Hi guys, Well I started to fire lap my 45 finally over the weekend. Let me first say, woaaah, what a chore this is. It's not for the inpatient that's for sure. So, on Saturday I loaded up 24 rounds as this was about all my arm could stand (rolling the compound in) on the first session. I loaded them with 5 grains of green dot for 500 fps. During my shooting session and after the first 12 or so, it started to wad them in a nice little group at 25 yds. I cleaned in between each 6 shots. And, I could start to see a ring develop (visually) on the inside of the barrel just about 3/4" the way in. I'm assuming this is where the restriction is and the fire lapping is beginning to remove it. But, not quite sure. It really just looks like a dark ring about 1/16" wide. Sunday I loaded up 24 more. Again, my arm was tired from rolling those bullets. I did the same treatment as on Saturday....6 shots, clean. However, this time I did take a handload that I'm wanting or hoping will shoot after all the fire lapping is complete. It's a stout load of H110 under a 250 cast flat nose. So, after the fire lapping I shot a group on a clean barrel. It did shoot better than it did prior to any fire lapping. And the barrel is much easier to clean now! But, I can still see evidence of leading after 6-10 rounds. But, the leading is only in the thread compression area and about 1" forward. So, more lapping to continue later this week. Since my gun is the stainless version and from what I hear, it can take up to 100 rounds. I'll probably go ahead and load the rest this week. I will slug the barrel though, both prior to and after another 24 rounds to see how the restriction is coming. Thus far, I'm happy with what I'm seeing. I am going to try a heavier bullet though after more lapping is complete. Either a 300 or 325 WFN from Beartooth. Oh BTW, I got the lapping kit from Beartooth. Top notch kit and I was surprised to find a small New Testament bible in the package. That was nice to see. Here's some photos of the reloading process and my cleaning patches from my final session. I only had to wipe it clean with three patches and a brushing between #1 and #2 patch. You can see how clean #3 patch is. |
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Post by 45coltnut on Sept 9, 2013 21:41:13 GMT -5
And the rest of the pictures. Attachments:
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Post by bibbyman on Sept 15, 2013 3:51:13 GMT -5
Please excuse my ignorance.
How does the fire lapping keep from lapping the throats and rest of the bore?
Way back in the old, old days I understand the gun makers would hand lap any tight spots in a bore. Somewhere in my stash of stuff I have a soft cloth that is caked with a fine abrasive that I would use a piece like a cleaning wad to polish a rough bore. Is that not done any more?
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